Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vanderzyden · 10-14-2002, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion:

Aha, Vanderzyden:

Psalm 145:9 reads
"The Lord is good to all."

Jeremiah 13:14 reads
"..."And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together." says the Lord. "I will not pity nor spare nor have mercy, but will destroy them."..."

Did you read the context?

A common characteristic of such "contradictions" is that they are "one-liners". We see it in the Judas example, and we see it in yours.

Read verse 8 of Psalm 145 and the first 13 verses of Jeremiah 13. You should see that there is no contradiction. If not, then start a new thread and present the particular difficulties that you see.

Thanks,

Vanderzyden

leonarde · 10-14-2002, 07:25 PM

Ion,
Pontius Pilate, Herod the Great, Herod Antipas, Josephus are 'Biblical characters' if by
'Biblical characters' you mean people who are
portrayed in the Bible.
Furthermore MY reference to 'no extant historical record of person X' was a general reference only (ie it was for people like you who don't 'buy' the NT).
I, on the other hand, think that Luke was writing
pretty good ancient history, using the multiple
written and oral sources at his disposal. But the
full rationale for believing among traditionalists
like me includes a belief in accepting the oral tradition which has come down to us from the apostles as well.

Cheers!

Baidarka · 10-14-2002, 07:28 PM

Family Man:
Don’t rise to Vanderzyden’s bait. He’s a fake, phony, fraud. He is incapable of a coherent argument so he ignores our arguments and unilaterally declares himself the winner. He’s a hit and run debater. He’s also not really a Christian as can be clearly seen from his atrocious unchristian behavior. Or should we redefine Christian behavior based on Vanerzyden's example?

Ion · 10-14-2002, 07:39 PM

Ha ha ha:

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:


Did you read the context?

A common characteristic of such "contradictions" is that they are "one-liners".
...
Thanks,

Vanderzyden

I told you:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion:
...
I bet Vanderzyden is going now to blah-blah me, about different 'contexts' for Psalm 145:9 and Jeremiah 13:14.
At that moment, Vanderzyden himself is going to be in contradiction with the fact that Psalm 145:9 is an absolute statement "The Lord is good to all.", without any context, while Jeremiah 13:14 must be in a 'context' particular to Jeremiah.
That's how apologists like Vanderzyden, are.

So Psalm 145:9 is absolute in the Bible, but Vanderzyden is still beating the same apologist drum anyway.

It must be a shortage of apologist ideas going on...

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

Ion · 10-14-2002, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:
Ion,
Pontius Pilate, Herod the Great, Herod Antipas, Josephus are 'Biblical characters' if by
'Biblical characters' you mean people who are
portrayed in the Bible.
...
Cheers!

Leonarde,
in my post I specifically named Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Judas as 'Biblical characters' not established in history.

So, there is no excuse for your 'confusion' between Pontius Pilate and say Judas, as to who I wrote is established in history, and who is not established in history.

Furthermore, in exorbitant claims like the one from Genesis 5:32 -"And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah..."- if there was any possible truth to a live human being "...five hundred years old...", I bet history and science would have wanted to recognize it.

The lack of history and science for such an exorbitant claim, makes it bogus by today's standards, just an old superstition.

Baidarka · 10-14-2002, 08:01 PM

Leonarde

John F Kennedy, Lyndon B Johnson, and Richard Nixon are all in Forest Gump does that mean that Forest Gump is real too?
Josephus is not a Biblical Character. I mean he’s not in the Bible. Although there are some who think that the NT novelists used Josephus’ writing as a reference.

Ion · 10-14-2002, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion:

...
So Psalm 145:9 is absolute in the Bible, but Vanderzyden is still beating the same apologist drum anyway.

It must be a shortage of apologist ideas going on...

So Vanderzyden, what's going on now?

I thought you posted:

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:

...
Let me tell you, I DO WANT to see the contradictions. Show me. I'm ready. I can take it. Please demonstrate just one contradiction, and I will admit it readily.
Vanderzyden

It must be a shortage of apologist 'ideas' going on for you Vandezyden, but please make an effort in imagination for more apologist 'ideas'.

You can do it, so then I will dissect them...

leonarde · 10-14-2002, 08:09 PM

Ion,
I was referring to your post (last one page 6)which was far more sweeping:

Quote:

Judas and other Biblical characters, are non-existent outside of the Bible, [...]

This was not limited to the names you later mention.

Look, emperors and provincial administrator (ie
people like Tiberias and Pontius Pilate)are, to
differing degrees, famous (I use the present tense
for simpicity's sake). Pontius Pilate would be like Gray Davis, Governor of California famous for secular (ie non-religious reasons).

Judas Iscariot, on the other hand, would be, at
most one of 12 'right hand men' of someone who,
in his lifetime achieved only a local fame and
that for 1 to 3 years. There's no reason in the
world why Judas Iscariot should have been written about outside of the religious context through which we know him.

Cheers!

Ion · 10-14-2002, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:
Ion,
I was referring to your post (last one page 6)which was far more sweeping:
This was not limited to the names you later mention.

Look, emperors and provincial administrator (ie
people like Tiberias and Pontius Pilate)are, to
differing degrees, famous (I use the present tense
for simpicity's sake). Pontius Pilate would be like Gray Davis, Governor of California famous for secular (ie non-religious reasons).

Judas Iscariot, on the other hand, would be, at
most one of 12 'right hand men' of someone who,
in his lifetime achieved only a local fame and
that for 1 to 3 years. There's no reason in the
world why Judas Iscariot should have been written about outside of the religious context through which we know him.

Cheers!

Leonarde, let's read together my post:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion:
...
Leonarde,
in my post I specifically named Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Judas as 'Biblical characters' not established in history.

So, there is no excuse for your 'confusion' between Pontius Pilate and say Judas, as to who I wrote is established in history, and who is not established in history.

Furthermore, in exorbitant claims like the one from Genesis 5:32 -"And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah..."- if there was any possible truth to a live human being "...five hundred years old...", I bet history and science would have wanted to recognize it.

The lack of history and science for such an exorbitant claim, makes it bogus by today's standards, just an old superstition.

It says Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Judas, doesn't it?
You are focusing on Judas? If he was involved with a historically recognized Jesus, I would know it.

Jesus is not historically recognized.
Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, are not either.

My post also says that Noah was claimed pompously of being more than five hundred years old.
History and science don't acknowledge this.

What happened in history regarding Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses (with more than five hundred years lifespan), Jesus (and Judas you like quibbling about)?

Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, Jesus (and his sidekick Judas) are missing from history, you know...

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

Ion · 10-14-2002, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion:
...
So Psalm 145:9 is absolute in the Bible, but Vanderzyden is still beating the same apologist drum anyway.

It must be a shortage of apologist ideas going on...

So Vanderzyden, what's going on now?

I thought you posted:

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
...
Let me tell you, I DO WANT to see the contradictions. Show me. I'm ready. I can take it. Please demonstrate just one contradiction, and I will admit it readily.
Vanderzyden

It must be a shortage of apologist 'ideas' going on for you Vandezyden, but please make an effort in imagination for more apologist 'ideas'.

You can do it, so then I will dissect them...


Vanderzyden has to think soon outside of the Bible:
that must be tough for a believer in the Bible.

You have my moral support, Vanderzyden.

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

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10-14-2002, 07:25 PM	#162
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	Ion, Pontius Pilate, Herod the Great, Herod Antipas, Josephus are 'Biblical characters' if by 'Biblical characters' you mean people who are portrayed in the Bible. Furthermore MY reference to 'no extant historical record of person X' was a general reference only (ie it was for people like you who don't 'buy' the NT). I, on the other hand, think that Luke was writing pretty good ancient history, using the multiple written and oral sources at his disposal. But the full rationale for believing among traditionalists like me includes a belief in accepting the oral tradition which has come down to us from the apostles as well. Cheers!

10-14-2002, 07:28 PM	#163
Baidarka Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 590	Family Man: Don’t rise to Vanderzyden’s bait. He’s a fake, phony, fraud. He is incapable of a coherent argument so he ignores our arguments and unilaterally declares himself the winner. He’s a hit and run debater. He’s also not really a Christian as can be clearly seen from his atrocious unchristian behavior. Or should we redefine Christian behavior based on Vanerzyden's example?

10-14-2002, 08:01 PM	#166
Baidarka Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 590	Leonarde John F Kennedy, Lyndon B Johnson, and Richard Nixon are all in Forest Gump does that mean that Forest Gump is real too? Josephus is not a Biblical Character. I mean he’s not in the Bible. Although there are some who think that the NT novelists used Josephus’ writing as a reference.

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