St. Robert

No man or woman will go away from God's eternal judgement without having a strong sense that justice was done and that the punishment or reward received was deserved.

Mageth

No man or woman will go away from God's eternal judgement without having a strong sense that justice was done and that the punishment or reward received was deserved.

How can you possibly know this? Are you god?

And why such a post, focusing on the wrath of god, after your above two exhortations?

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

Hans

RJS

On this point I must respectfully but most stearnly disagree.

To reject or accept the Christian god requires a belief that he infact exists. One does not choose what to believe and what not to believe. I could no more decide to believe in the christian god without first receiving information that convinces me of his existence than you could stop believing in him without information to the contrary.

Plain and simply, I can not reject what I don't believe exists. And my skeptical mind has yet to receive any info that would lead me to conclude that the Christian god exists.

The Christian bible is indistinguishable from fact or fiction, thus entirely unreliable. Additionally, and to its discredit, the subject described there-in would, if it existed, surely have foresight regarding the unreliability of the method it chose to inform us of its existence.

It is but an ignoramous that, holding the belief that the Christian god exists, would then choose to reject him. I suppose such people might exist but they wouldn't be included in the list of smart people. That much is for sure.

You must consider item three or deny belief is based on information:

1) Those who have accepted him.
2) Those who have rejected him.
3) Those who do not believe in him.

It can not be reduced any further.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Hans ]</p>

Sci_Fidelity

Because the former is incompatible with omnibenevolence....and the "holy books" don't seem to contain much of the latter.

atheist_in_foxhole

Consider the following:

• Bubonic plague killed 75,000,000 people in Europe and Asia in the 14th century
• Influenza killed 22,000,000 worldwide in 1918-1919
• A flood in China killed 1,000,000 people in 1939
• An earthquake in China killed 830,000 in 1556
• A typhoon in Bangladesh killed 500,000 in 1970
• An earthquake in India killed 300,000 in 1737
• A tidal wave in India killed 215,000 in 1876
• An earthquake in Japan killed 200,000 in 1703
• A flood in the Netherlands killed 100,000 in 1228
• An earthquake in Italy killed 60,000 in 1693
• An earthquake in Portugal killed 60,000 in 1755

All this because a talking snake convinced a woman to eat forbidden fruit?

atheist_in_foxhole

Also consider this description of what ebola does to its victim:

Thousands of people have died this way. All because of a "fall" in a magical garden?

RJS

Consider the following:

Something will cause all of us to die within the next 80 years (on average). This can include natural causes such as old age, cancer, floods, earthquakes, etc. It can also be ended by another human. We are going to die, period end of story.

I am sorry death depresses you so much. It humbles me. Try fasting for a few days and you will see how insufficient you are in this body.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

Sci_Fidelity

Trouble is, if your god really existed, do you honsetly think he would let his children suffer so? Would you, if it were in your power to stop it?

RJS

You must not have kids. I have the power to do my kid's homework, but they still have to do it. I also have the power to let my 3 year old out of time-out as soon as she starts crying hysterically (usually after about one second), but I dont. And I do love my kids.

Please don't respond that a 3 year old crying in time out is different than the ebola virus or something.

luvluv

From Reasons.org:


Moral evil in the universe seems easier to explain: Evil people make evil choices. But humankind's choices do not account directly for all of the "bad" things that happen in the world. "Natural evil" presents a more difficult intellectual hurdle to the Christian faith. Today, for example, we may ask (or be asked) how a loving God could allow Hurricane Mitch and the Armenia earthquake to shatter countless lives? Given the occurrence of these and other horrific natural disasters, skeptics assert that the existence of an all-powerful, all-loving God makes no sense.

When faced with this question, the Christian would do well to concur that certain natural phenomena (earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, tidal waves, etc.) do wreak havoc and bring suffering. Clearly, these tragedies warrant a compassionate and empathetic response, and questions about them deserve serious consideration. If we seem cold or callous about human suffering and loss, the opportunity for thoughtful discussion will most likely be lost.

We can, however, talk about "natural evil" as a misnomer, at least in one crucial sense. Phenomena such as earthquakes and hurricanes actually prove beneficial for mankind. Planetary scientists, among others, affirm that events such as hurricanes and earthquakes must occur for planet Earth to maintain the delicate balances of atmospheric and other environmental conditions mandatory for human life to exist and survive. As Hugh Ross documented in a recent article: "[Hurricanes] counterbalance the ocean's tendency to leach carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. This leaching, if unchecked, would result in a catastrophic cooling of the planet. On the other hand, hurricanes prevent the oceans from trapping too much of the sun's heat by helping to circulate greenhouse gases globally as they shade the ocean locally, preventing heat from building up too dramatically for the safety of certain sea creatures."'

Likewise earthquakes play a vital role in providing for mankind's survival. Without them, "nutrients essential for land life would erode off the continents and accumulate in the oceans. In a relatively brief time, land creatures, at least the advanced species, would starve."2 But thanks to the movements of the Earth's tectonic plates, these nutrients are recycled back onto the continents.3

From this article:

<a href="http://www.reasons.org/resources/skeptics/goodgod.html" target="_blank">http://www.reasons.org/resources/skeptics/goodgod.html</a>

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>