The_Unknown_Banana

Well, here's her response. I'm still working on my response back...

Disputing Evidence #1

There are no transitional forms present today (summary)

Okay, so you showed fossils. Prove to me that there is an animal that is actually “transitioned” within our lifetime, and that the half way stage is at the present.

For example, saying that these transitional forms are possible, and we are naturally seleceted or picked from our vast different environments surely the African desert tribe should differ from the S.American Amazonian tribe, from the westernised tribe to the Eskimo tribe. Yet, we all are compositionally the same. Considering the theory that Eskimos have lived in the artic for hundreds of years.. surely they would start becoming more hairy like the polar bear by now. You would think that the African which has been in the desert for possible “billions” of years, that he would have developed a more efficient water retaining and metabolising ability like a camel, and that Amazonian… surely they would have increased immunity to all the snakes, spiders and all that jazz.. surely they would have longer and stronger arms to be able to hunt and reach trees…. There are millions of possible “skeletal and genetic” mutations that should be present all over the world, in the human kind in their ‘half stages’ with people dying out in various places and the like, yet the population is increasing where the conditions are worst. According to Darwins theory, these people should be the ones decreasing. Prove to me a skeletal half stage in a human. How can we all be the same? Surely some of the “supposed” skeletal structures of man in that lovely photo you presented would still be seen in the less-profitable environments? Surely those long “ape-like” arms would still be present in the humans that have never left their “Amazonian” environment, I mean tree-swinging would be very useful no?

The_Unknown_Banana

Here's my reply:

Sweet! If you accept the fossils, then we're halfway there already :-)

"...Prove to me that there is an animal that is actually “transitioned” within our lifetime, and that the half way stage is at the present..."

Well, by this definition, it is in fact impossible. Simply because, natural selection doesn't have a goal, we don't know where it is taking us. I could say that humans in general are the half way stage for little bug eyed aliens, but I would have no way of knowing. Creationists are looking for a cartoonish half fish half elephant, and that's just not how it works. Give us another million years, and I think we will be very different to how we are now though.

"surely the African desert tribe should differ from the S.American Amazonian tribe, from the westernised tribe to the Eskimo tribe. Yet, we all are compositionally the same"

Yes, we are still human. Yet you cannot deny that subtle differences have occured - Africans obviously have darker skin, to cope with the sun. Eskimo's do not, and could not cope in the environment Africa has. This is not disputed by creationism either, as it is still considered within the same "kind". Humans are an exception however, as we have intelligence which turns out to be a better survival tool than any other physical development. If the eskimos didn't have the intelligence to aquire thick warm coats, they would die out. Lets take a scenario where they didn't develop artificial means of keeping warm. If their habitat started out warm, and the change to a cooler climate was gradual, then the eskimos with better "insulated" bodies would survive above others, and their genes would be passed on. Hairier bodies, thicker skins... whatever. That's how evolution works, in my understanding.

Also, the African tribe does differ from the amazonian tribe. I can tell you now, from personal experience, that they are very different people, both mentally and physically. For the sort of changes you are expecting between the two, you would have to wait quite a bit longer I'd imagine.


"There are millions of possible “skeletal and genetic” mutations that should be present all over the world, in the human kind in their ‘half stages’ with people dying out in various places and the like, yet the population is increasing where the conditions are worst."

No mutation should be present. It doesn't work like that. If a trait is developed that gives a creature a survival advantage, then it has a higher chance of passing on those genes. (Eg. Black skinned africans) What do you mean when you say "half stages"?

"Prove to me a skeletal half stage in a human"

Define half stage. What do you want, a half human half hippo?

"Surely those long “ape-like” arms would still be present in the humans that have never left their “Amazonian” environment"

This also depends on where you believe humans developed. I am no expert, but I think science leads people to believe it started in Africa. I'll wager a bet that the amazonians have much stronger arms than any of us do. If long arms was indeed a bigger advantage than their intelligence, then I would imagine they would have died out by now.


Since humans are a little different, why not look at animals instead.

You don't think birds evolved? Then why do they have scales on their legs, and the genes which, when switched on, would provide them with teeth? And is it just a coincidence that evolution thought they evolved from dinosaurs before we found such a gene? Is it coincidence that the fossil record corroborates this fact?

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/TECH/sci...4/teeth.birds/

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/arch...html#specimens

If you think this is just a variation in kind:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/arch...html#Variation

Doubting Didymus

Looking good. I might add a dash of punctuated equilibrium theory: we don't expect much change until a population finds a new ecological niche, at which point it evolves at crackers pace and speciates in the process. You could also show him a couple of extant "transitionals": animals which are descended from populations that are representative of a common ancestor of two other extant species.

You remember that thread? Let me see...

Doubting Didymus

Here it is. What Kind is that?

Point out that these are hypothesised to descend from, and be representative of, an ancestral version of a modern species.

The_Unknown_Banana

Cheers, have sent it away. I also included some of those transitionals (I've seen that thread before too)

The_Unknown_Banana

Haven't heard a reply yet, but in searching for more material I happened on this nice web site (While trying the "I'm feeling lucky" button in Google with "evolution" lol)

see here for the faq on evolution: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/li...cat06.html#Q02

and here for a brief look at religion and evolution (and what some biblical scholars say about reconciling the two - they seem to have fairly high credentials so it's gotta help anyway):
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/re...ith/index.html

(Here's the main page)