Hawkingfan

I have to agree with Jobar that our "regular" theists will not take part in this thread.

stretch,
This conversation is good. What I want to know from you, and any other theist that will come by, is what evidence do you have that your specific mythology is the right one, and that any other is false (or not believable)?

If the evidence is answered prayer, then I can pray to another deity (not necessarily Allah) and get positive results as well. If it's the "word of god", I can site other books that make the same claim, if it's prophecy...etc. You get the point.

When EstherRose went off about seeing evidence of "God's hand" I want to know how you know it's that particular god's hand. Etc.

Be back tomorrow.

stretch

Too bad for them. They don't know what they're missing ... but not everybody is into filloserfizing, I guess.

Glad to hear you're enjoying the conversation, too.

The way I see it, lots of things in this world are observationally equivalent.

Here's something that I wrote not all that long ago (this is from another forum, and was written a little over 2 years ago):

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One of the reasons that I continue to consider myself as being agnostic is that many things related to religion seem to me to be observationally equivalent (i.e., it seems to me that in either case the world around us would appear to be the same)

3 examples for consideration:

(1) A world created by a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God followed by 'fallen' humanity vs a world created by an indifferent force/first cause after which nature has been allowed follow a random course. In both cases you would have good and evil, joy and sorrow, search for meaning by anything that has developed self-consciousness, etc.

(2) Religion with or without the presence of any sort of God. In a (hypothetical?) world without a God, any being with sufficient consciousness would wonder why s/he is here, would be curious and/or fearful of death, etc. A variety of stories/theories would evolve. Some would be more attractive than others. Any promising a life continuing past a finite time would be especially attractive and would be expected to uproot other explanations that had less optimistic predictions. In a (hypothetical?) world with a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God, religions of hope would also exist, but would in fact be based in truth. And with a fallen humanity, not everybody would be 'willing' or able to believe due to nefarious influences co-existing in our material world.

(3)Codes of morality. Whether or not humans are here with or without this being attributable to God, we still need to cope with the world around us. We seem to be social beings, and norms of behaviour develop in social societies. We also tend to be empathetic beings, most of us do not like to hurt each other. Codes of moral behaviour will be developed, some with a basis in religion (which is either based in an ultimate truth or wishful thinking).

If the world would look the same either way, it doesn't seem to be possible to know which (if any) of these scenarios accurately depicts the world in which we find ourselves.

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That doesn't explain why I believe .... that explains why I didn't believe.

What happened to make me change my mind?

Two things

(1) .... a long conversation that made me switch to thinking not that maybe, maybe there's more to the world that the material world that I see and experience around me.

(2) a 'mystical' experience when I decided to step into a church and try spending a bit of time there.

OK ... sappy .... but that's it.

Talk to you later,

pagabler

Well,

Unfortunately, I can point to no proof of God's existance, as recognition of God is experiential. If you don't have experience of, communion with, God, you can't have belief (well perhaps you can have belief, but faith?...I define "faith" as belief that has been tested...)

When I say "God," I don't mean the old man in the throne with the long white beard and the gigantic cosmic calculator keeping track of all that we've done right/wrong -- I don't believe that god exists. I don't believe in a thiestic creater-god. If that is your definition of God, then I must grant that neither the god of Christianity, nor the god of Islam exist.

What I'm calling "God" here isn't possible for me to describe verbally. I could try -- the all, what is, the ground of being, the energy that connects us all, "The Force" (for all you Star Wars fans )... That's what I mean by "God." I suppose you might say that I don't believe in God, but what I believe in, I call God.

So... In answer to your question, I respond that, for me, God exists. You must walk your own path to determine whether God exists (after all, no one should take anyone else's word for this...) In response to the second part of your question... to me, the gods of Christianity and Islam are the *same*. There are many lenses, but the light is the same...

When asked whether God exists, Buddha remained silent. Perhaps that is the best answer. After all, 1) no matter how hard we try we can't express what God is, 2) knowledge of God is experiential, not logical, 3) you should take no one's answer to this question other than your own, and 4) knowing whether God exists can't help to alleviate suffering -- that help must come from within.

P.

Cross Examiner

Philosoft:
Not at all. Hawkingfan asked in his opening post: "What evidence (or logical reason) do you have to prove that your specific god, the god of Judaism and Christianity exists?" To which I obliged some reasons, talking points that evince my belief--as a conversation starter. That is the point of all this, is it not?
In Islam, Christ existed as one in a series of prophets from God, of which Muhammed was the final and most important. Consequently, Muslims consider the doctrine of the Trinity, and Christ's divinity, as polytheistic in nature and an affront to God's oneness. Allah takes no partners (found repeatedly in the Q'uran), or so I've read.
Have we met? My ability to assess evidence is beyond your scope of reference. What do you know of my emotional state?

Respectfully,
BGiC

Hawkingfan

This is a little off topic, because I am asking for proof or reason for believing in the existence of a specific deity over the existence of another. I think that people who believe in deity x, have come to believe in it for cultural, and personal (meaning that the deity "fits" into their specific outlook) reasons. In a way, it's like shopping at a super Walmart where you have so many different brands of god to choose from and each customer buys the one that fits their mentality.

Anyway, I don't think you must have been too sure of yourself before you had this conversation. I think you should have another conversation to show you that thinking something might exist outside of science is totally unreasonable.
This would fall under anecdotal evidence, something that religious people love to offer as proof. It only proves that the person has a vivid imagination. I can have a 'mystical' experience with imaginary entity x, such as magic invisible leprachauns, but it is nothing more than an antecdote brought on by my imagination.

stretch

Hi Hawkingfan,

Like I said, probably in another thread, the reason I believe in any God at all cannot be objectively validated by anybody else. What I offered above, isn't a proof in any sense of the word, it's just a sketch of an explanation. So I don't think that it really belongs in a philosophy section.

Anyway, instead of just talking to atheists/agnostics who always agreed and validated my belief that the world was purely material I talked to somebody with a different viewpoint, being very sure of myself that I just weren't the believing type. The fact that I believe still surprises me sometimes, partially because I have never seen what I would consider a completely compelling logical/philosophical argument against materialism.

(Aside: Heck, I could always challenge you to go over to a Catholic forum and argue your views .... )

Why I ended up a monotheist, and in particular a xian, has something to do with the nature of my 'vivid imagination' ...

Hawkingfan

Again, a little off topic. I am not just talking about the existence of god, but of a specific version of god over another.
But the above quote is another favorite of religious people. Are you sure "experiential" isn't just apophenia or a confirmation bias?
This was almost on topic. You need to keep going. This is what I'm talking about. Some people DO believe (through "experience"!) in the god with the long white beard. But you don't believe them! Why do you not believe it? What evidence do you have that proves it is false and that your own version of god is correct?
You've used a common religious phrase again that is a bit ambiguous: "walk your own path" (to determine). That's what I was talking about earlier about fashioning your own god for yourself. That is not evidence or reason for believing in deity x. It's just self-deception and wishful/selective thinking.
Why? Isn't this is the problem? Won't this result in widely varying versions of god? If god really existed and really made himself known to each individual, they should all have the same version of god and you wouldn't have to say things like this. This just proves that version x of believer y is solely based on their imagination and self-deception.

Hawkingfan

I am not claiming anything. Christians teach redemption through Christ. No belief in Christ=trip to hell. Muslims teach belief in Christ=trip to hell. I was simply pointing out that they contradict each other and cannot both be right. I never said the answer is dependent upon interpretations.
When I said Christians teach God sends Muslims to hell and vice versa, you said, "If God exists, what he decides to do is up to him," which is a classic, textbook example of Ad Hoc.

Hawkingfan

The bible is unclear on the actual step-by-step method of being saved (is belief enough?, is baptism a requirement?), but it's clear that Jesus has something to do with it ("I am the way"). Anyway, I said the *bible* is unclear, but we were talking about Christianity in the first place. I clearly stated what Christianity teaches, regardless of what the bible says.

stretch

Some Christians (aka fundies) teach no belief in Christ = trip to hell ...

As you mentioned earlier, it isn't anything that can be found in the bible (which is one base source for xian theology).

You have claimed that Muslims teach that those who believe in Christ go to hell, but you haven't substantiated that as a widely held Muslim belief or that it is in the Qu'ran (sp?).