tronvillain

Life is the only thing, but it doesn't follow from life being the only thing that life should be valued. Why should one value existence if one does not enjoy it to some degree?

abe smith

SOUTHERNHYBRID, dear; I,ve just sent a not-very-adequate but certainly grateful reply to your personal email to me; and I here thank you again for your wonderfully-kind & understanding that-email. I now, reading these posts learn that you also have been/are a parent & it seems obvious that your thoughts on the present subject have been tried in the fire of your personal experience. I'd just hazard an opinion that some of these others who opine theirs here, as diffident indeed as you-all are, don"t know much about it..... But that's all right. I certainly do agree from my first hand & recent Of courseexperience that M.D.s / psychiatrists really are beating a religious drum; that like garage mechanics! {Yes, indeed!} they are in business to make a living & get status; by USING the "victims"; and moreover that they don"t know anything. All their fancy diagnoses are the presentday equivalent to medieval astrology; it is bullshit; it is OPINION! and there's no truth in it. Of course my own position is that MY BODY IS MY OWN! IT ABSOLUTELY BELONGS TO ME & TO NO ONE ELSE! There is--- Oh! the Fourteenth Amendment delivers us citizens from involuntary servitude; and locking people up for being "suicidal" / attempting suicide unsuccessfully is a violation of human freedom. Carry on, group; y'all are doing good. Abe

Samhain

*Sigh* Am I speaking to a wall here? Ok, Life is the only thing. Without existence, there would not be any experience, good or bad. When one is dead, one does not enjoy, feel, experience, learn anything. I do not condemn suicide in its entirety, as I said numerous times before. All I say is that it is definately not a decision to be taken lightly. It is not changing your life for the better, as so many of you seem to think it could be, it is the wiping out of your existence in its entirety. As I said, I do not hold anything against anyone who commits suicide, it is not immoral, and it is ultimately their choice, it really doesn't matter to me either way. The way I will view that person after they are dead might change, though. Once they are gone I would view someone who committed suicide in one of two ways: a person who truly released themselves of the pain of living rationally, or one who made that decision rashly, or irrationally, by choosing non-existence before even exploring every other possible, viable or feasible alternatives. The latter person who commits suicide is not making an informed decision, and therefore, while I do not hold anything against this person for choosing that path, I do see them as extremely rash, or as one who does not truly think about the consequences of their actions or who does not believe in personal responsibility. The only truly rational scenario would be a situation in which living and existing truly made no difference over dying and wiping out existence. Even more so, total wiping out of existence must also be better and make a more positive difference than existing. If a terminally ill patient with 3 months to live has exhausted all other viable alternatives, but knows that his last 3 months will be pain and suffering, is a good example of what I would count as a rational decision to commit suicide. This is dignity with death. One who wishes to enjoy their last days rather than spend them in pain and misery; one who wishes others to enjoy his last breath on the earth rather than watch him in pain. If non existence makes the only positive difference, and existence no longer makes any kind of positive difference, then it would be rational to choose death.

[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: Samhain ]</p>

free12thinker

Good for you. You exist. I exist. But Mr. Whoever down the street does not exist and he doesn't even know it anymore. That's because he committed suicide after rationally coming to the conclusion that his life wasn't worth living anymore. His daughter's both moved out of the house and he was wheelchair bound for the rest of his life. This made him unhappy and unable to do what exactly it is he wanted to do (be active, be confident) la la la la la. So he no longer exists, because to him, life in a wheelchair was no existence in itself. (please don't reply with some literal response about he breathing equals existence). Just because you're breathing doesn't mean your Living life, and the only person who can determine if their existence is a true existence is that someone. I'm glad you exist. Bravo for you.

emotional

Saying "don't commit suicide" to a depressed person is like saying "keep bearing a life of torture". You prohibit his outlet without providing him with an alternative.

"Don't commit suicide" and "suicide is wrong" are just selfish attitudes towards the problem: you want the suicidal person to be with you, but you don't seem to care that he's undergoing pain.

Suicide is a last resort. One should always try other solutions first. If, however, those solutions are exhausted and don't actually solve the problem of overbearing pain, then suicide is the way to go. Myself, I'm going to hospital soon as a near-last resort, after trying many remedies to my depression. If hospital treatment doesn't cure me, I'll commit suicide.

And my suicide note will say,

"When I said I needed a girlfriend, I was totally serious. Do you get it now?"

Bree

I really hate how you can have just ONE BAD DAY (one really bad day) and suggest that suicide has been running through your head - and then your shrink decides that since you considered it ONCE - even in a logical manner - you're obviously hella insane and need to be committed in order to "get better."

Too many hospitals (Miller Dwan, Duluth MN comes to mind) simply take everyone and everything in, feed them pills, and then blame the side-effects of those pills on the patient. They're more interested in money than they are the person. I would rather have a one-on-one shrink than a group session in a hospital, any day.

MadMordigan

I would rather have a one-on-one shrink than a group session in a hospital, any day.

In my experience, this doesn't work very well either. Since the shrink always retains the ability to recommend commital, the patient has to be very careful NOT to mention, or even suggest suicidal intentions during therapy. What happens then is that the patient and doctor spend the sessions talking about what the doctors wants to hear.

Samhain

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> Do you suffer from dyslexia? I only ask since you seem to have some kind of trouble reading my posts. I never said that just because you breathe means that you exist as a concious entity. Existence means living and having the ability to experience your life conciously. The only point I have tried to stress every time you come up with some silly response to my posts is that every other alternative should be exhausted. Being discontent with your current status does not mean that you cannot find joy in life. As I keep saying, unless non-existence makes a more positive impact than existence, then one should heavily weigh the consequences of such an act to come to a rational decision. If existence is more positive than non-existence, then wouldn't the rational choice be to choose existence? If every viable alternative has not been exhausted, then it is impossible to come up with a rational and informed decision, much like someone becoming a christian without even reading the Bible. Therefore, just the consideration of committing suicide can only be viewed as reasonable once every other alternative has been explored.

ju'iblex

i'll start off by giving a brief outline of my own viewpoint.
if you are an adult, have actively sought help for whatever problem you might have and have not come to any kind of conclusion, it is perfectly reasonable to decide your own future course. Be it death or surviving it is, IMO, your choice as to what you do with your own body.
i could elaborate on further paths and consequences of what i have said, but i will wait until asked. this is only the foundation.

as you said emotion takes precedence. i know its rather futile to be arguing with you over the importance of emotion in existence Samhain, but it is purely the reason why someone would commit suicide. in what way is wishing to end your life on the basis of emotional torment unreasonable?

which is more reasonable, to not know, to not exist, to not feel or think

or

to be in constant and overwhelming pain which affects your every action and thought?

to someone in this situation, it is obvious which choice they will take, and to them, and to others like myself, it is indeed reasonable.

how so? its not as though we're able to miss our existence afterall.

you value life, that is a fair value to have and i by no means criticise that. but your view seems to assume everyone holds that same value. to you it is rash, to others justified.

people do not possess the same compulsions as you, that in no way makes them irrational.

how is the fact you are still alive any consolation for your pain?

Absolutely! What does it matter how happy or unhappy you are in your life? we are all raised to the same level when its over. The perfect motivation to commit suicide. happiness means nothing in the end.

ditto

the perfect motivation once again.

what seems to you to be irrational was actually a long thought out series of self-rationalisations, whether you might acknowledge that or not.

the problem with your definition of irrational is that youre taking it purely from your outsider perspective. you have no concept of what is going on these peoples minds and thus you cannot in any way empathise with their situation. based on your perspective, it is not possible to make a judgement on what is or is not justified or informed.

free12thinker

Am I dislexic, or are you playing counselor. All I've been trying to say is that for some people no existence is better than existence and when you keep saying that one "SHOULD" weigh the positive first, you're trying to tell people how to live their lives. People "SHOULD NOT" do anything, except what they want to do. Why "SHOULD" they try to weigh all of their options? Because we think they should? Because we have a different spin on life than they do? I don't think so. People should either live life how they wish, or cease to exist. And for some, exhausting all avenues may just be delaying the inevitable and in that, going out on top or going out peacefully is a terrific choice.