Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Stephen Maturin · 06-19-2002, 10:02 AM

Yep, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. In this case, though, the cigar is actually a government-funded endorsement of Christianity, and that's a big fat no-no. Besides, if Ann Coulter favors the idea, it must be wrong.

Toto · 06-19-2002, 10:40 AM

For reference, here's that old thread from the archives:

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000336&p=" target="_blank">World Trade Center Cross</a>

tragic_pizza · 06-19-2002, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:


Hi tragic - last time I looked you were a Christian. This topic asked if atheists were bothered - have you switched sides?

No, but I was responding to a specific point, and since this isn't BaptistBoard, I knew I was allowed to speak my mind. Thanks for asking, though.

Quote:

As I recall, we had a long thread on the WTC Cross when it was first discovered. One of our local theists tried to claim that it was just "inspirational" and wasn't that a good thing. The rest of us thought it was pretty pathetic that people would ascribe supernatural meaning to something you could expect to find in the rubble from a building that contained many, many instances of straight things meeting at right angles.

Now, a Star of David, THAT would be a miracle!

People find hope and inspiration wherever they want to. I know a woman who finds deep spiritual truths in Metallica lyrics.

Stop laughing. I'm serious.

Whatever "meaning" is read into the "WTC Cross," the fact remains that it is a part of the lore associated with this nation's process of coming to grips with the tragedy. I'm really of two minds in this -- since it is a memorial, I'm unsure that the symbology of a particular religious system is appropriate. Of course, since it happens to be a symbol of my religious system, I don't find it offensive...

tragic_pizza · 06-19-2002, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by simian:


I thought about this over lunch.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, other times it is a big, brown dick (to quote/paraphrase George Carlin).

Quote:

What about when some group decides to put up a replica of it on every courthouse lawn in the US? After all, if it is "just" a memorial, what possible objection could people have to it?

Point taken.

Quote:

I can't get over the fact that the granite 10 Commandment monuments on courthouse lawns started out as a promotion for a movie. I think the potential for this is even worse....

Come and visit Alabama. You're right.

Quote:

It will be easiest to have this cross moved to private property now, rather than allowing this icon to be on pubic property and becoming an excuse to put up more.

Isn't the WTC property private? I honestly don't know.

In any case, perhaps consigning it to an area where the chronology of the event, and the process of recovery and such, are explained. That way, it isn't so much a symbol of remembrance as a part of the history of the whole process. Perhaps this would be an acceptable compromise?

Jayhawker Soule · 06-19-2002, 01:07 PM

It doesn't bother me.

hezekiah jones · 06-19-2002, 01:24 PM

I would like to have a look at that "cross" up close. Ann Coulter is claiming it's made from the steel of two different buildings, and implies that its existence is some sort of miracle.

Of course if there were stitch welds on the horizontal members, that would blow her little theory out of the water. Unless Jesus has his structural ticket. Last I checked, Jesus was still apprenticing:

The Other Michael · 06-19-2002, 01:38 PM

Sorry - extremely poor motor skills at the moment - moderator feel free to delete this

thanks,
Michael

[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: The Other Michael ]

NYC Gus · 06-19-2002, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Isn't the WTC property private? I honestly don't know.

No. It is owned by the <a href="http://www.panynj.gov" target="_blank">Port Authority of New York and New Jersey</a>. The Port Authority is a government agency responsible for transportation between New York and New Jeresey.

The lease is owned by Silverman Properties, a private firm.

Toto · 06-19-2002, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:


Isn't the WTC property private? I honestly don't know.

In any case, perhaps consigning it to an area where the chronology of the event, and the process of recovery and such, are explained. That way, it isn't so much a symbol of remembrance as a part of the history of the whole process. Perhaps this would be an acceptable compromise?

The WTC was some sort of public-private blended venture.

How would you explain the process of recovery? Some people focus on an imaginary friend to help them through the day?

Grumpy · 06-19-2002, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:
Any other atheists or church-state advocates luke-warm about this?

I confess that's my reaction exactly. I certainly wish that nobody ever conceived of such a grotesque monument. But I have a hard time snatching it away from people who are obviously already having a hard time coping with real life.

I say, leave the Cross up -- as a signature of responsibility (metaphysically speaking, of course).

06-19-2002, 01:38 PM	#17
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	Sorry - extremely poor motor skills at the moment - moderator feel free to delete this thanks, Michael [ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: The Other Michael ]</p>

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06-19-2002, 10:02 AM	#11
Stephen Maturin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Broomfield, Colorado, USA Posts: 1,295	Yep, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. In this case, though, the cigar is actually a government-funded endorsement of Christianity, and that's a big fat no-no. Besides, if Ann Coulter favors the idea, it must be wrong.

06-19-2002, 10:40 AM	#12
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	For reference, here's that old thread from the archives: <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000336&p=" target="_blank">World Trade Center Cross</a>

06-19-2002, 01:07 PM	#15
Jayhawker Soule Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,777	It doesn't bother me.

06-19-2002, 01:24 PM	#16
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	I would like to have a look at that "cross" up close. Ann Coulter is claiming it's made from the steel of two different buildings, and implies that its existence is some sort of miracle. Of course if there were stitch welds on the horizontal members, that would blow her little theory out of the water. Unless Jesus has his structural ticket. Last I checked, Jesus was still apprenticing:

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