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07-28-2003, 08:45 PM | #61 | ||||
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excreationist,
Yes, I did read your last post, but it didn't seem like you were speaking to what I was saying. Quote:
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07-28-2003, 09:18 PM | #62 | |||
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I think all of our "good"/"bad" (pleasure/pain, etc) emotions are summed together to find an overall result. e.g. say you were driving slowly along a busy freeway and you saw lots of money lying around. But you were late for an important meeting. You could either hop out of the car and start picking up money or not get out of the car. You initial thoughts might be (approximately) a) Getting out of the car: Being more late for meeting (-70), having lots of money (+100), holding up the traffic (-20) b) Staying in car: Missing out on money (-30) So for (a), overall it would be +10 but you'd simultaneously feel various pleasures and "pains" that would be based on fundamental drives. (b) would be -30 overall so you'd choose option (a). Then while hopping out the car you might hesitate (rethink) a little and realize that you should hand that money into the police in case somebody claims it or it was stolen. That could sway your decision the other way. But you'd be aware of the potential pleasure of the money and perhaps remember that if no-one claims the money after a few months it's yours. So you might reverse your decision again, but then remember your meeting and maybe remember that this meeting could get you a promotion so you just forget about the money and keep driving. This would also involve the overall values for possible decisions to change, possibly making the "best" decision change. An analogy could be a chess computer. Let's say you gave it a few seconds to make its "decision" as to what piece it will move and where it will move it. This might be enough time for it to look 3 moves into the future. Then if you gave it some more time - so that it could look 5 moves into the future, its decision might change. Quote:
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07-28-2003, 09:52 PM | #63 | ||||
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excreationist,
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07-28-2003, 11:17 PM | #64 | ||||
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spacer1:
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As far as why the conscious "I" is involved... well *something* needs to be involved which simultaneously processes relevant data such as priorities (based on fundamental drives), and hypothetical options. There are also areas of the brain that associate different elements of experience together to learn patterns and so make future decisions. e.g. we can associate sounds or smells with the sight of objects. We can associate the sound "red" with a certain pattern of visual sensation. So our learning involves having all the senses interlinked. And learning is connected to our decision-making. I think that the processing system (which may be spread out) for decision making and/or learning is what our consciousness is. As for why the data (qualia) that these systems (our "consciousness") are processing seems so real and immediate... well you didn't ask about that and that is quite a difficult question anyway. |
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07-30-2003, 02:23 AM | #65 | |||
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excreationist,
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07-30-2003, 04:56 AM | #66 | |||
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Assuming their subconscious beliefs about mice (which they might have learnt as an infant or child) are true (which their brain does assume), them taking extreme measures to avoid mice does involve minimizing pain (aka discomfort). Quote:
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"My point is, how does inanimate matter come to have a desire to survive in the first place?" What do you mean by "come to"? Do you mean how inanimate matter has developed over billions of years to get to this point? Or how during our lifetime we turn from inanimate matter to decision-making people? BTW, most animals wouldn't have an explicit desire to live. I mean they probably wouldn't be able to imagine themselves not being alive. They'd want to avoid physical pain though. People can learn that it is possible for them to not be alive (be dead) and so want to survive. But I don't think we have a hardwired desire to avoid death. Our avoidance of physical pain to varying degrees would be hardwired though. That's why people sometimes actively choose death in order to avoid things like physical pain or feelings of alienation (lack of "connectedness"). I think when people learn about their own possible death, they usually feel a connectedness pleasure (familiarity/attachment) with their life and so a lack of connectedness (unfamiliarity/loss) with death. They might also think that death would hurt (involve physical pain). |
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07-30-2003, 09:54 AM | #67 |
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Uh, keep in mind that the phobia doesn't necessarily require incorrect beliefs, it could as easily be that the basic response to certain stimuli are simply "innapropriate." In that case, mice associated stimuli would be incorrectly wired to trigger fear or nausea, without anything accurately described as a "belief" about mice (though it might be the basis of negative beliefs about mice later).
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07-30-2003, 09:06 PM | #68 | |
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