Amos

Then let's deal with the present time and let me nominate the children of Luther as the modern day children of Israel who are on a 500 year crusade to kill the mob. Their ideologies are the same, their wanderings are the same and their dilemma is identical in the "sinful yet saved" paradox. To me this suggests that they are bewitched or else they would see the origen of their error.

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Egoinos

Why thank you

The use of torture isn't something I know a huge amount about, but I do know it was used in trials not only of witches but of other criminals.

Much depends on how you define "torture" here. It is true that England saw little torture as was carried out on the Continent and in Scotland - one of the reasons England is odd in the witch-trials - but if you define torture as threats, and the use of the needle to find the "witches mark", as well as ducking the alleged witch, then England did perform torture of a sort.

Hopkins was self-proclaimed, btw, rather than licensed by the state. There is a certain irony in that he was himself accused of witchcraft, because of the number he caught, and it was alleged that he had a book given him by the devil with the names of all the witches in England in it!

The Daemonologie of 1597. It, and Newes from Scotland, are the only two works on Scottish witchcraft of the 16th Century, oddly enough. The Daemonologie isn't really a very good book, certainly much inferior to some of the larger (and more original) works on demonology published on the Continent, but it did have some effect in that it was authored by the King (who lost interest after 1603) and it was referred to in later trials.

Possibly, Scotland's greater extent of social upheaval following the Reformation and the imposition of Calvinism may also be to blame.

More active, I should say. Perhaps something to do with the temperament of those countries, or the political upheaval, especially in the Holy Roman Empire.

I'm not quite sure what you mean: are you saying that 15th C Catholics connected the Lollards and other deviant groups with witchcraft and the Protestands did the same with Catholics later on? There could be a link in that the early Protestants were Catholic-trained, of course.

lugotorix,

I know very little about Salem, I have to confess. I have heard it described as a part of the European witch hunt, but its not something I've ever looked into myself. I just posted Erikson's understanding because I came across it, and thought it was an interesting theory as to why witch hunts happened.

--Egoinos--

Vesica

I am not avoiding this...I don't get what you are saying/asking. What mob? Where are the children of Luthur going? Huh?

Butters

Posted by Vesica,
This is a good point, execpt we are not talking about races, nationalites, or political systems. We are talking about a religion. A religion that claims to be different from all other religions. A religion that claims to possess the actual words of God. A religion that claims to be guided by the spirit of God.
I examining the history of this religion, we can see that these claims are false. Sure, men could hijack a false religion, but the TRUE religion? Would an omniscient God allow this? Wouldn't he make his words clear enough that at least his followers could not be fooled by evil men hiding behind is words? Christians claim God is active in mens lives, why didn't he save the innocent women accused of witchcraft and strike down their accusers? Why do churchs need lightning rods? Does God strike his own house? Is he unable to stop demons from doing so? Or maybe there is just no such thing.

But what if I want to consider that Christianity is true? What sect should I follow? They all claim to know the "truth" but they all disagree on what that "truth" is. How can I keep from getting sucked into witch hunting? How can I avoid becoming one of heavens gate faithfull? After all, they can interpret scripture like anyone else. Should I trust God, and let my son become an alter boy? If the Christian claims were true, I could. Were the hell are all those gardian angels?

I am a whie American male of German desent. I am not personaly ashamed of the holocaust, WW2, slavery, or the slaughter of the Native Americans, but I will not accept people that want to fogrget about these events, or minimize them. The only way to avoid repeating history, is not to forget or deny it.

Christians claim to know an allpowerfull, all knowing, all loving, all merciful God. By exposeing the evil wrought in this Gods name, you expose the fact that this is just another in a long line of religions that only benifit their leaders.

-B

Bede

Vesica,

Fell free to ignore Amos. No one can understand what he is talking about and replying simply gets you more of the same.

B

PS: And feel free to ignore Butters as well. He just wants a Christian to rant at like many of the headbangers around here.

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: Bede ]</p>

Amos

Butters, we put lightning rods on Churches because Churches are for sinners.

Amos

You are not avoiding this and I am pointing at the modern day crusaders who are getting ready for the second coming of Christ. These are the children of Luther who have been ripped from the Church and are now going around in circles trying to prepare the world for the second coming of Christ. Those who are in charge of this see it as their mandate from the bible.

They act like children because they have fornicated their inner child and therefore fail to mature as Christians and will die as child of God nonetheless. This means that, here too, none of these children will return from this crusade.

What I wrote earlier does not change but I might add that even torture chambers would not convince them otherwise.

PS, feel free to ignore me and respond only if you feel comfortable to do so.

Clarice O'C

Hello,

According to an article written by Arlea Æðelwyrd
Hunt-Anschütz called "The Burning Times Myth,"
published in the Spring 1999 issue of "Connections
Journal," the witches who were persecuted and
tortured were Christians. I wonder if
Hun-Anschutz is right. Imagine Christians doing
such an evil thing as persecuting other
Christians.

"So what's the real story with the "burning
times"? The 40,000 or so victims of the Great
Witch Hunt, which took place in the midst
of religious battles between Catholics and
Protestants during the Reformation, weren't
witches, or Goddess-worshippers, or Pagans
of any sort. They were Church-going Christians.
They tended to be old widowed women who were
perceived as a burden on the community, out-spoken
younger women who were perceived as a threat to
the authorities, sexually promiscuous women, or
women whose socio-economic power was a source of
envy or fear. The form of "witchcraft" these women
were falsely accused of was Satanic, not Pagan.
The most popular accusation was that they
fornicated with the Devil. Under torture, they
often admitted to participating in forms of "the
black mass" as fantasied by Christian zealots."

<a href="http://www.anglo-saxon.demon.co.uk/Skvala/burning.html" target="_blank">"The Burning Times Myth"</a>

Best,
Clarice

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: Clarice O'C ]</p>

Sojourner553

I agree with you on Augustine -- although he was for harsh beatings, this did not extend to torture. (His model was of the disobedient son who "must be corrected with stripes")

But the reason we know this, Bede, is because his writings make this clear.

If the Church disapproved of the tortures in the secular courts, we should see some writings on this (and I do not mean by a few reformers with no real power).

I would be curious if you have seen any evidence where religious authorities were opposed to the tortures being conducted by secular authorities in England, Bede. Otherwise, I would be included to think they, at a minimum, passively accepted it.

I wonder what impact, if any, English Common Law had on this? It was a Christianized Roman law used on the Continent I read once.

You will find a large exhibition in London called the London Dungeon full of waxworks of English torture instruments (with appropriate sound effects) but the fact that torture required the direct orders of the monarch should not be overlooked. This meant that torture was not used in English witch trials and it is estimated that hangings (they were not burnt) totally about 1,000. Apart from the Civil War period, when Matthew Hopkins (the infamous witchfinder general) was active, capital witch trials had largely ceased by 1600. [/quote]

Good for England. I am someone of an Anglophile myself.

But Bede, you seem to hunt and peck around the evidence that minimizes this darker period --rather than squarely summarize it head on IN ALL LOCATIONS!

Afterall England was also Protestant during the 1500's with Queen Elizabeth's accession to the throne. And in OTHER places you seem to want to make a distinction between Catholic and Protestant conducted witchcraft trials.


I would guess the craze to find witches, created the demand for torture, not the other way around.


Bede, I decided to research this one on the Web. Look what I found. You left out a LOT OF DETAILS on this, such as she was threated with torture many times and that Kepler had to personally defend her himself. It is very likely his personal prestige and influence with the duke is what actually saved her.

But you use this to imply there were no tortures at all -- a major distortion seems to me -- when one reads all the details!


<a href="http://hydro4.sci.fau.edu/~rjordan/bios/Kepler/Kepler_bio.htm" target="_blank">http://hydro4.sci.fau.edu/~rjordan/bios/Kepler/Kepler_bio.htm</a>

and

<a href="http://www.phys.virginia.edu/classes/109N/1995/lectures/kepler.html" target="_blank">http://www.phys.virginia.edu/classes/109N/1995/lectures/kepler.html</a>


You are too defensive sometimes, reading things that are not there. Did I not include the quotes of John Wesley as one example of Protestant belief in Witchcraft? I thought that pretty powerful.

Catholics and Protestants were both claiming the other were really agents of Satan. In this environment it would be easy for both sides to see witches.

And yes, people do go through fad crazes. It doesn't have to be religious. Kids are being suspended from school for going "bang, bang" with a chicken nugget.

When my daughter was in daycare, the "day care attendents are sexual abusers" vogue was in. One day I went to pick up my daughter to find she had been fired. She was black, pregnant and in her late twenties. She was very sweet and moved slowly, probably because she did not not feel well. She did slather on a lot of vasoline and baby powder. Seems one of the mothers "interpreted" this as "sexual abuse" and that's all it took to fire her.

[quote] per Bede:

But perhaps there is a link between late 15th century Catholic concern about witchcraft with Hussites and Lollards which then carried over to Protestants concerned about Catholics. Is there any evidence of this?

I think it is from hysteria. Again if the sermons are emphasizing Satan is everywhere, there are more hysterical-minded people that will begin fantasizing about this.

Sojourner

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

NOGO

I really don't get this.
I am suppose to apologize because Stalin did not believe in God?

There is no church of atheism nor is there any atheistic Bible, nor do atheists knock from door to door to preach atheism.

Atheism is not a religion, Sojourner. What exactly unifies Atheists?

I don't believe in flying saucers. Therefore I should feel shame each time a unbeliever of flying saucers does something evil.

The Christian Bible on the other hand specifically tells believers how to deal with apostates, witches, homosexuals etc.

Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

How can you blame people for killing witches. The Bible tells us that witches exist and orders believers to kill them.

Christianity, not Christians, is to blame.

I hope that you will change your mind on this.