Pat Kelly

Perhaps a few questions and statements will help convey my meaning.

Is it logical for parents and other adults to hide sex from children? Why do we do this? Are we afraid children might come into our adult bedrooms and try to join in if they saw us enjoying ourselves sexually?

It seems possible that could indeed be one of several natural response by children because similar behaviors are well-noted in the young of other species near us on the evolutionary tree. So what would happen if we allowed our children to see us engaged in sex outside the obvious legal ramifications that would result in children being quickly removed from their parent's care? Would it really harm children to witness adults engaged in intercourse, oral sex or other sexual behaviors?

Some seem to believe it would be traumatic for a child to witness parents engaged in sex because the child might misinterpret it as an act of violence. I am not sure who's kids are being referred to in this imagined scenario but all the children I have ever know including my own have always struck me as a litter brighter than that. I suspect a child's first response in coming across their parents sexual behavior would be curiosity quickly followed by the question; "What are you doing?" Though I personally have never been confronted with such a question, I have little doubt it has been asked many times. This raises another question that many seem unwilling to ask.

What would happen if we did not stop to try and hide our sexual behavior when confronted by children but instead continued our sexual behavior and simply stated we are having sex? What would the child do? I suspect he or she would continue to watch out of curiosity either until they became bored or gained enough understanding of what was going on to decide what they should do about it if anything. Would either event be psychologically harmful to the child or necessarily change the relationship between children and parents?

Taking this one step further, what would happen if the child decided to try and join in the sex and was rebuffed with a little kick or rejected by the statement; "Not now! Can't you see I'm busy?" As far as I can see, this would be nothing different from any other situation where a parent might scold a child for sticking his or her nose into where it was not welcome. It also seems such a situation might evoke a bit of humor and parental amusement forcing them to stop what they are doing anyway in order to respond to the child's wide-eyed curiosity.

On the other hand, suppose mommy and daddy did not draw such strict lines between affection and sex and did things like allowing tickling fingers or lips to extend into sexual areas of the body. Would this be so bad or somehow harmful to children? Some of the most well adjusted people I have ever know come from families where sex was not seen as taboo, shameful or something to hide. Many European parents appear to feel comfortable playfully touching their children everywhere with no noticeable distinction when it comes to areas between the legs. Though such things tend to raise one's eyes a bit, I have nothing but admiration for people so secure in their sexuality they seem unaffected by social hysteria over sex and children. Children from such families also seem more emotionally secure and outgoing than the average child one might see from a western culture family.

Gurdur

I believe that was my point beforehand.


---> Pat Kelly, and SecWeb Moderators & Admin: Questions:
SecWeb admin & forum mods; I request you rule if these questions are permissiable, and then direct Pat Kelly to answer them, without further personal denigration of questioners. Should questions be deemed impermissiable by either Pat Kelly or SecWeb admin, I request a detailed, concrete explanataion of just why they were impermissiable.

Should the response be only further preaching or personal denigration, I request that the offending posts be deleted till Pat Kelly actually answers the questions.

Questions:

1. Pat Kelly has now admitted that adult/child penetrative sex might well be coercive:
   
   Quote:

   ,,,The fact that initial acts of penetration involving immature partners rationally seem to always indicate at least some level of force or coercion would also seem to usurp the child’s right to choice ...

   Therefore, could Pat Kelly please detail exactly what adult sex acts with a child he finds appropriately permissiable ?
   
2. If penetrative sex in that context is impermissiable (according to Pat Kelly), does this not contradict Pat Kelly's previous statements that:
   Quote:

   The greater majority of sexual interactions between adults and children follow the same general pattern as all other types of human sexual interactions

   and
   Quote:

   and are void of the comparatively rare negative elements most have come to associate with all instances of adult/child sex

   ?
   
3. Does Pat Kelly hold adult/infant sex ---- say an infant under 2 years of age --- to be permissiable ?
   If not, why not ?

Perhaps enough to start with ?

Buddrow_Wilson

Blondegoddess- I prefer it if as little authority is aware of my existence as possible. Please don't do that anymore.

Maverick

Gurdur,

Evading direct questions is not against our rules. The readers should be able to discern when a question is evaded and draw their own conclusions as to why that individual did so.

Maverick

Opus36

I have a question for you Pat. You say when you found out about your neighbor you went into his house and grabbed him by the throat. Since you have changed your position on the interaction of Adult/Child relationships, have you apologized to him? And are you now supporting him in his efforts to help your daughter explore her sexuality?

beth

I apologize for posting my grievance with you publicly. Yes, the FBI knows where I am as I reported your site to them with full discloser of my identity. I did not report your posts, I jumped the gun on that, but I felt I had to with your site. Besides having a moral obligation, I had to cover my back for veiwing child porn and so on. It was pointed out that my earlier post could be consider harassment. I did not intend to harass.

I do take issues with your posts. I was a victim of child molestation and rapes. I can say that it was very pleasurable at times, but it left me with deep scars and two suicide attempts and a lifetime of guilt and shame. Your reasoning is wrong. It hurts children.

Koyaanisqatsi

Yes, the poor misunderstood Pat Kelly evasion attempt again.

As I said before the first time you used this to avoid dealing with any of the issues and questions I brought up, if that makes it easier for you.

What is the adult's responsibility, Pat? Did you understand that?

Yes, there is. You have no ideas to grasp. You have only the pathetic rationallizations of either a sociopathic or delusional mind who refuses to acknowledge the adult's responsibility in engaging in any kind of self-satisfying sexual pleasure involving children.

What you keep pretending are "ideas," are nothing more than pointless, irrelevant, rhetorical shifts of focus from the real question; indeed the only question of any relevance at all: What is the adult's responsibility?

You can't answer that question of course, because it would force you to recognize that everything else you claim are "ideas" about society's views on human sexuality "hurting" children is an obvious, transparent smokescreen to avoid you having to ever face the only relevant issue; society's views on adults who use children for the adult's sexual pleasure.

You have tried desperately to make it seem as if this is all just about the beauty and majesty of sex in general, always carefully and deliberately avoiding anything regarding the adult's responsibility.

Why is that Pat? Poor writing skills? We cant' understand what the lofty ideals are that you are pathetically hiding behind?

You are transparent. It's as simple as that. Now answer the question.

What is the adult's responsibility?

"Rape?" What rape? The scenario I presented went to great lengths to point out the initial interchange was mutual. The child was enjoying it....at first.

But as you've already conceeded, it is not possible for an adult to engage in any form of intercourse with a child and not have it be rape.

So, I tell you what. I challenge you to provide us with an alternative scenario; one that would not ultimately result in any kind of psychological harm.

Every single scenario that I can raise will always result in the psychological (and physical) trauma of the child due to the fact that an adult is taking advantage of the situation for their own sexual pleasure.

By all means provide us with a scenario in which no psychological harm will obtain. We'll wait.

Ahhhh, the song of the truly desperate. Accept for the fact that I answered your challenge as did you when you made your capitulation to dangin.

You agree with me. There are no scenarios in which psychological harm will not obtain.

If you think you can present one, then by all means. You have the floor.

We'll wait....

But I think blondegoddess (a victim) put it best: "Your reasoning is wrong. It hurts children."

End of story.

Debbie T

I was a victim, and was too young to know what society's views were at the time. I was harmed body, mind and soul not by what society thought about sex but because of what my abuser did to me.

The perps took away my life, my innocense and my trust and not until recently did I take my life back. Like in the movie Good Will Hunting, the words "It wasn't your fault" had to be said over and over again until I could believe and heal from the abuse that you are advocating here and on your web site. Even with much healing it is something you never completely get over. It is not about healing what society thinks about sex, it is healing from what the perp does to you sexually, or what they made you do to them sexually. None of what was done to me made me feel good in any way, it arrested my developement and took away my childhood that should have been happy and carefree and left me living a nightmare. I felt sick all the time and terror when the door would open in the middle of the night as I knew what was happening. Should I tell you how I used to wet the bed hoping that would make them go away? That is the legacy adults who abuse children leave behind. There is nothing innocent about adults having sex with children.

What you advocate Kelly is nothing more than whitewashing abuse and the rape of innocent children. Koy spelled it out pretty accurately with the story of the five year old boy.

I can look at an innocent child and compare it with an adult and know who actually perpetrates the abuse, who actually is in charge of the abuse. The adult manipulated me to believe it was my fault, sounding much like you in your rationalizations. The adult who to this day denies any wrong doing.

Pat Kelly

I will assume your use of the words molestation and rapes means you were an unwilling partner in sexual behavior forced upon you that you did not agree to at the time. If I am correct in my assumption, what happened to you was clearly wrong and in my estimation falls more under the category of assault than sex. Sex is not wrong. Forcing someone into sex is.

Your post conveys a very strong message that sex experienced as a child, even sex that is experienced as pleasurable, equals deep scars so painful they can drive one to commit suicide. After reading this I am of course, sensitive to the pain you relate and must accept you at your word because I am reluctant to ask you to go into more detail for fear doing so may cause you additional pain. So in your case like most others, some important questions go unanswered leaving the premise you put forth that adult/child sex equals deep scars leading to suicide unchallenged. Of course it would be unreasonable to expect anyone to openly discuss highly sensitive personal matters within an open forum like the Internet so I will limit any further enquiry to general terms as opposed to you personally and there is no need for you to respond unless you want to.

There are many causes of suicide and recent discoveries have linked suicide to a chemical imbalance in the brain that has just as much if not more to do with genetics as any external stress factors. I could give you a couple of pills that would change the chemistry in your brain and likely cause you to jump off the nearest high building. It is highly possible your suicide attempts would have still occurred even if you never experienced any early sexual traumas. Suicide is never a rational act and not a rational response to any particular event including forced sex. I have a lot of trouble understanding how anyone could arrive at the conclusion that the best way to deal with something that happened 10 or 15 years ago is to kill themselves today or long after the event.

This does not mean people are never capable of finding something to blame for all their current problems or capable of drawing irrational assumptions their life could have been much better if only this or that had been different. The type of personality that would attribute so much of their current life’s difficulties to something that took place 15 years ago would at the same time, very likely be inclined to distort and exaggerate the true importance of the events in question.

If someone is forced into sex by their parents there is every reason to believe those parents are inadequate in far more ways than simply being so insensitive to their child’s wellbeing they would force him or her into sex. Such parents would likely be dysfunctional and unable to adequately meet the needs of their children in many areas and the children would suffer in many ways that have absolutely nothing to do with sex.

Another term we seem to hear over and over these days is “deep emotional scars.” Again we seem to accept an understanding that equates deep emotional scars to all early experiences of sex. Surely the experience of being raped would make an impression on someone they would not soon forget. But there is a huge difference between being forcefully raped and all the other sex related events a child might experience during childhood. To assume every incidence of adult/child sex has the same affect upon the child as rape is ridiculous and clearly not true.

In specific terms, what are these deep emotional scars we hear about so often and what is their affect upon those who claim such scars? I experienced a sexual encounter with an adult when I was 5 and basically thought nothing of it. It was no big deal other than a new experience with someone and the fact sex was involved added no particular significance. There was no force involved in this experience though elements of coercion were certainly present.

I cannot claim to fully understand what it might feel like to be raped other than to compare it with an event of being physically attacked and beaten up. This happens to many people as children especially boys and they seem to emotionally survive the trauma without too many lifelong consequences. Perhaps this is because the element of severe social condemnation is not present when it comes to boys fighting and physically assaulting one another.

Guilt and shame is another thing commonly related by those who report early childhood sexual experiences. Though such things are very real in today’s society that strongly condemns any sex between adults and children, the negative affects relate to the social condemnation and not the sex itself. In other words, it is kind of silly to attempt to repair the brakes on a car when there was nothing wrong with the brakes related to an accident caused by a faulty stoplight.

I highly suspect there is much we would learn if we did not stop our enquiries as soon as anyone claimed deep emotional scars from incidents of childhood sex. There is no question that rape and forced sex are always wrong with potential negative long-term affects. However, I am still waiting for any explanation that shows how the experience of sex, void of the extremes of force or violence and void of the severe implications of social rejection, is in any way psychologically harmful to children at any age regardless of the age of their sex partner.

Koyaanisqatsi

Hmmm...let's see if we can find out what the effects are. If only we had a particular case study.

So I was right? Gee, what a shock. And I even guessed the right age.

So, in other words, everything I typed in my scenario came true with you, so the psychological trauma in your case resulted in you growing up to victimize others with a sociopathic inability to recognize your lack of empathy or admit your culpability.

You not only have no remorse for your current actions as an allegedly mature adult, but you are also incapable of seeing anything wrong at all in your performing the same things that were performed on you. Indeed, as this thread demonstrates, you go to extreme rhetorical lengths to exonerate not only your own behavior, but the behavior that was perpetrated on you as a child as well.

When asked to provide the adult's responsibility, you constantly avoid the question and hide behind your desperate smokescreen of "beautiful sex" and "no big deal."

Yet it is a big deal. In your case it resulted in the death of your emotional empathetic abilities--i.e., sociopathic mind set--and a dangerously high delusional state wherein you seek nothing but avoidance of responsibility. And worst of all, just like the scenario I painted earlier, it has resulted in the victim becoming the victimizer.

You want an example of the psychological and physical harm and how it effects the child? Look in a mirror.