Epitome

Vesica:I see the problem not as a lack of religious influence in social values or morals but in a blanket rejection of too much of what people of certain religious persuasions just happen to support.

Right you are. Many atheists don't just have a lack of belief in God, they have hostility towards religion and thus are unable to objectively disassociate morality from religious tenants.

danginWhen you argue morality exists only because of religion you exclude millions of years of social interaction among our own, and several other species.

It's so goddamned obvious I grow weary of explaining it to the short sighted.

If it's so obvious then why, after all these 'millions of years of social interaction', does society still struggle with morality? How many more millions of years do you think it will take before we can do away with prisons?

It is through philosophical theorizing on the common good that we can see how morality betters individuals and society. And therefore what betters individuals and society generally is moral. But it's not a cause and effect in that social interactions do not produce morality...

Morality and ethics are either taught or discovered through trial and error. It is no surprise that many religions share tenants that atheists can agree with as well. If right and wrong is objective than be there a god or no, it should be able to be found and practiced despite what you believe.

What religion offers that secular humanism does not is an authority figure and/or accountability outside of oneself to do 'the right thing'. Anyone with children can attest that accountability to a morally guiding authority figure tempers natural selfish and individualistic behavior and produces morality in adulthood.

But even then the overwhelming majority of adults still need something besides their own conscience. And many of them are still unable to be moral!! How very few humans there are who are capable of being moral unless their freedom or even their eternal lives depended on it… so how can we expect morality for morality's sake from an entire society?

Epitome

brighid

How so?

Original sin denotes nothing about personal responsibility, if anything it denotes the opposite as this Christian concept automatically makes every human being sinful upon the moment of conception. We are all condemned because allegedly the first man and woman didn’t believe God and so ate a piece of forbidden fruit. How am I personally responsible for the sins of those people? The whole idea that a savior had to die to absolve man of this hideous state and one must only believe in this God does nothing to further the concept of personal responsibility either. Jesus is allegedly the get out of jail free card even if you murdered millions of people…

Then there is the whole nonsense of Satan and the excuse that “the devil made me do it” and when people “sin” they are somehow influenced by this demonic force, or they have moved away from God. That idea certainly doesn’t further teaching people to take personal responsibility for their actions, but it sure gives a convenient scapegoat for illegal, immoral and unconscionable action. The typical Christian or religious response is that immoral people who don’t worship God are the reason “evil” has befallen a country – see the tirades of Jerry Fallwell, Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson, etc. after the 9-11 atrocities … how’s that for personal responsibility?

As far as I can tell Christianity takes the opposite position (in most cases) when it comes to personal responsibility. Men are sinners because of Adam and Eve, Satan makes people do very bad things, Jesus is the ticket to being absolved of all the things men do wrong and non-Christians, atheists, feminists, homosexuals and all other manner of sinner are responsible for the perceived demise of America, including this step away from personal responsibility. All the while our religiosity has increased!

Personal responsibility is no about blaming others for your behavior or bad choices. It’s about accepting full responsibility for the things one does and that includes accepting the consequences for those actions without deflecting blame to another agent. In teaching my child personal responsibility I instill the notion that when he knowingly chooses to do something, while full and well aware of the consequences he has consciously chosen to accept the outcome of those actions. He is taught that no matter what any one else does he is in control of his actions and reactions and therefore he is the only one responsible. There are no get out of jail free cards, but each mistake garners a valuable lesson that each time strengthens his character.

Children learn what they live and when they are brought up to believe that they are irrevocably broken, sinful and their bad choices in life are influenced by demonic forces, that someone else has “paid” for their sins and they must be "redeemed" ... is it any wonder that they grow up failing to take responsibility for their actions?

Brighid

Psycho Economist

You're right. Parental control of children is important, so they can socialize their children into norms that will keep them safe, until the children can internalize those norms themselves.

But what of society? The shifting beliefs of who it's permissable to kill and exploit (even into modern times) suggest that even if transcendent, objective moral truths exist, we don't know what they are.

I don't mean to change the subject, but while William James and Emmanuel Kant might love you for having said that, what good is an ultimate authority figure who is (or even may be) make-believe? What deterrant is a judge who (assuming he exists) determines guilt and innocence based on our beliefs, not on our actions?

While you might be tempted to reply, "No true Christian would ever...", a lot of dirtbags take solace in the idea that they'll be forgiven by their deity and not judged for their actions.

Why are atheists so dramatically underrepresented in American prisons?

ImGod

This is a good example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If children are taught that morality comes from a “by the rules” external force then a similar external force will be required to keep them moral as adults. Morality will be defined by what they can get away with under their interpretation of the rules. Once the parental external force is lifted, as for example a child going away to college, then the morality of the individual will change to fit the system of rules imposed by societal or religious laws. Unfortunately, these laws give them substantial leeway in interpretation when dealing with other individuals.

I agree with your assessment of :

The key is word is guiding. Teach children that they are responsible for the pain they inflict on themselves and others because of poor choices in life and they will learn to think of the consequences before they act as adults. We set acceptable boundaries for our children by giving them choices. An example would be the rule; sit down at the table and eat what is cooked or go to your room and play. We do not demand or force them to eat, because it would interrupt our meal. If they choose to go play in their room when they were hungry, then they are hungry until the next meal. They learn to sit at the table and eat what is available or go hungry from the choice they make. I’ve had to use this valuable lesson myself many times when eating poorly prepared dinners at other people’s houses. I don’t complain, I simply eat what is available or go hungry.

This simplified example is expanded into all areas of their lives. Our children are forced at an early age to think about the causal effects of their actions develop a better conscience than those who have the thinking done for them. They develop a moral code based on having to live with how their actions affect others or make them feel (internal) versus one based on avoiding punishment (external).

Jamie_L

I'd say some, not many, as neither one of us has done any kind of exhaustive survey of atheists.

Because there is no objective moral standard?

Um, as a guess I'd say when there are no more human beings there will be no need for prisons.

Well, people were living successfully in groups before they had much capacity for philosophical theorizing. So, as a first cut, I'd say social interaction creates the need for moral behavior. Those groups that don't rise to the challenge will be in a world of hurt.

As you say, after millions of years of social interaction, we still struggle with morality. That would seem to indicate we are not able to find and practice that elusive "right and wrong". And, by your arguement, that would suggest there is no objective right and wrong.

Does it? Religion offers no consequences in this life for immoral behavior. The supposed authority figure is neither seen nor heard. In that respect, secular morality, based in the here and now, offers more reasons for moral behavior than some fear of after-death punishment and reward.

Right. That's because children are developing their moral sense. Without guidance, that moral sense does not develop. Adults already have that intuitive, emotional moral sense. It is not analogous to say they need guidance. Their brain pathways are all pretty-much set.

Do they? Are the overwhelming majority of adults immoral? By what standard?

Who was suggesting morality for morality's sake? More like morality for humanity's sake.

Annecdote:
I had a friend in college who said that if it weren't for God, he would just run around killing people. He meant it. That was scary. Is that a good moral system?

Another annecdote:
My little cousin was playing cards with my grandmother. He was cheating. My grandmother called him on it.

Grandma: "God knows when you cheat."
My cousin: "Yeah, but he can't tell anybody."

Jamie

[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie_L ]</p>

dangin

Because we are not educated to understand social behavior as a root cause. Nor is each human "perfectly social". We are all on a sliding scale of socialization, just like we are on a sliding scale of intelligence, sexuality, strength, size, etc. etc.

There are so many theories about morality, and most of them deny that humans are simply animals with the biggest brains.

Get the big picture, understand that as social creatures, like the rest of the primates, and wolves, and lions, and schools of fish, etc. etc. we have rules that make our social structure work.

The most important of these rules, don't murder, don't assault, don't home invade, don't steal, seem self evident because it is easy to imagine one's self as the victim. But more so, the individual who engages in these behaviors places his/her own place within the society from which he/she draws support in jeopardy.

We are useless as individuals, as a group we can go to the moon, cure polio, build a great wall in china, or invade and/or defend Normandy in 1944.

As individuals our well being relies upon maintaining our access to the society from which we draw benefit. It is our own self interest which must drive morality. This is how children should be taught.

The two forces that working together come closest to creating the "authority" behind "objective moral codes" are self interest and empathy.

Jesus can bugger off entirely, he is not a part of the equation. He is simply one of many who have commented on it.

Stephen T-B

This thread has given rise to a number of superb expositions which show Internet Infidels at its very best. In comparison, my own contribution won’t amount to much, but it will perhaps illustrate the truth of one of the principle contentions, ie that morality owes nothing to gods.
I was brought up in such a profoundly religious household that every morning, from the age of about five, I was expected to seek god’s guidance. The whole family did, and we shared our “guidance” at the breakfast table. In addition, I was taught that I must try to live by Four Absolute Moral Standards, these being Honesty, Purity, Love and Unselfishness.
I was a good little actor and was thought to be quite angelic, but throughout my childhood I was given to bouts of outrageous behaviour - breaking windows, beating a toad to death with a stick, cheating at school, bullying and teasing my school mates and lying with natural-born ease in order to escape the consequences of my actions. When I reached sexual maturity, the Absolute Purity rule did inhibit my interaction with girls but didn’t stop me masturbating, an activity which was regarded as seriously impure.
I would keep anything I found without compunction and was regularly outside the law in terms of my use of cars and guns.
After I decided god was irrelevant to my life (at about 20), my behaviour has steadily improved. I am now almost completely law-abiding and put far greater store on personal integrity and honesty than ever I did when I was a god-believing Christian.
My three children have been brought up with barely no religious influence (some came from my parents, but they didn’t often see them) and are responsible, decent, law-abiding people with well-developed social consciences. It wasn’t an immaterial god which kept them on the straight and narrow but a very material mother, with eyes in the back of her head.


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I

Stephen T-B

Repeat post.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Stephen T-B ]</p>

Epitome

Psycho Economist : Why are atheists so dramatically underrepresented in American prisons?

Maybe because once in prison so many 'get religion' as a means of convincing judges they should get early parole. (joke- albeit with some element of truth to it)

It fascinates me how so many here are jumping all over Christianity rather than the question at hand which I thought was 'religion' in general.

Epitome:[v] Right you are. Many atheists don't just have a lack of belief in God, they have hostility towards religion
[/v]

Jamie: I'd say some, not many, as neither one of us has done any kind of exhaustive survey of atheists.

Perhaps I should have said, "Many atheists in this thread don't just have a lack of belief in Christianity they have a hostility towards Jesus."

When I was speaking of 'religion' I wasn't referring to Christianity and yet that is the assumption in almost all the replies. Can some one explain this?

Antedates and personal experiences can only persuade those ignorant of facts.

It is a well-established fact through various studies by both religious and secular organizations that communities where people are involved in churches, synagogues or Mosques have lower crime rates, fewer out of wed pregnancies and more responsible parents.

The 12 step programs that incorporate a 'higher power' are used by most 'addiction anonymous' groups, not because there is some conspiracy to indoctrinate, but because they are much more effective than those which rely only on personal strength.

Religiously active people, not just those who just say they believe, are much more likely to obey laws and behave morally than those who are not active or have no belief in a higher power.

However, I will not pass up on the opportunity to comment on what Christianity offers that other religions do not, and why it has life-changing results for so many people. Unlike what most here have put forth, Christianity is not just a religion where you must do what is right or go to hell… What Christ did on the cross inspires those who believe to follow his commands (to love) out of their love for him, not out of their fear…

Psycho Economist: While you might be tempted to reply, "No true Christian would ever...", a lot of dirtbags take solace in the idea that they'll be forgiven by their deity and not judged for their actions.

Who is a true Christians is a matter for God to decide not me. And while you are right, dirtbags expect 'cheap grace' to cover their sins, it would do you a service to try to objective. The effect forgiveness can have on someone who is truly repentant of their sins is more often life changing.

Stephen seems to think it's fantastic that he had a rebellious stage in his youth and then came back to the morality his parents taught him… He attributes his morality to a conscience inspired by his atheism rather than the Biblical precept of teaching a child the ways of God and he'll not depart from it.

How much more miraculous is the story where someone is brought up without morality and then, once they find religion are able to give it up and live righteously. For every 'moral atheist' story I've heard (most brought up by religious parents) I've heard a dozen religious conversions of much more significance.


Epitome

Jamie_L

Most of us are from the U.S., a majority Christian society. Most of us are former Christians, and the religion we are confronted with daily is Christianity. It's also the religion most of us can speak about with the most knowledge. I couldn't tell you one whit about Wiccan morality.

They can illustrate points, like an analogy.

Ah. Much better than anecdotes are unsubstantiated facts.

Fine. Correllation. Not causation. And what are we comparing to? The vast numbers of secular humanist communities?

The 12 step programs are used because most people in the community believe in God. Again, no conspiracy. However, as long as we are dispensing facts without sources, I've read that 12-step programs aren't particularly more or less effective than other programs that don't focus on God. It's all about support from other people.

Ah. There are studies that differentiate between those who really believe and those who just say they believe? Psychic survey-takers? Again, as long as we're not digging up sources (which is okay - I'm a lazy bum myself, and I don't feel like searching the net for a link), I've read reports that indicate no particular correclation between religious activity and moral behavior.

Fine. I accept that. I believe that. But that is exactly the same as a humanist who follows his morality out of a love for humanity and a desire not to do others harm. Which is fine. It's great. That's what morality is all about.

Sounds like the same story to me. Not moral. Epiphany. Moral. On a planet with 5 billion people, there will be lots of these stories, and the source of the Epiphany will vary widely.

Well, duh. There's a lot more theists than atheists out there, and a lot more Christian evangelism than atheist evangelism. Chances are more people convert to Christianity each day than deconvert. Thus, more Christian stories.

Jamie