Vorkosigan

Unlike Meth, I realize that the religious as well as non-religious are capable of being cruel and of causing world problems. I think many other atheists realize this as well. Atheism provides no better answer to the problems of life.

Atheism is just the statement that there are no gods. It doesn't attempt to provide any answers to life. That is up for the individual in question to decide.

Until Haran puts forth some evidence linking atheism to the atrocities in Columbine and Germany, his remarks will just have to remain a bit of hopeful slander on his part. As far as anyone knows, the kids in the Columbine tragedy were raised Christian. Not that that means much either way. I doubt religion, or a lack of it, played any role at all in either of the school shootings.

In any case, it is kind of petty to focus on isolated incidents by tormented adolescents with access to personal firearms, when in Indonesia Muslims and Christians slay each other with gusto, in Rwanda the trials of clerics accused of genocide continue, in the US the Catholic Church protects pedophiles, in China Communists harass, imprison and torture religious people, in Africa the Churches peddle a proudly ignorant and authoritarian Christianity, and in the Middle East Muslims dream of blowing themselves up in crowded shopping malls. Authority beliefs, all....

Vorkosigan

NOGO

Haran,

Here is one of the many reason I doubt Christianity. I am sure that you will have a clear and plausible explanation for this. One, I hope, that even a non-believer can believe.


Somewhere in Genesis man made a great sin and God promised us a saviour.
Jesus was the sacrificial lamb whose blood would allow God to forgive humanity.

Hebrews 9:22
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

We can look back at the OT note the bold text

Lev 4
24 "He shall lay his hand on the head of the male goat and slay it in the place where they slay the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.
25 "Then the priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering.
26 All its fat he shall offer up in smoke on the altar as in the case of the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin, and he will be forgiven.

Lev 5
5 "So it shall be when he becomes guilty in one of these, that he shall confess that in which he has sinned.
6 "He shall also bring his guilt offering to the LORD for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin.
7 "But if he cannot afford a lamb, then he shall bring to the LORD his guilt offering for that in which he has sinned, two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
8 "He shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer first that which is for the sin offering and shall nip its head at the front of its neck, but he shall not sever it.
9 "He shall also sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, while the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar: it is a sin offering.
10 "The second he shall then prepare as a burnt offering according to the ordinance. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it will be forgiven him.

There are many more examples.
Basically to have their sin's forgiven the Hebrews shed animal blood to Yahweh ... and He forgave them.

Jesus was suppose to be a sacrificial lamb for forginess of sins.
But hopefully not ordinary sins since they had ordinary lambs and other animals for that. This is the way Hebrews 9 puts it.

Hebrew 9:13-14
For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So Jesus' blood was much more effective than animal blood but surely Jesus did not die for ordinary sins alone. Romans 5 explains Jesus' main mission.

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.


Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

A read of Romans 5 shows that Jesus' main mission was, in a nutshell, to undo Adam's sin and reconcile humanity to God.

This is then God's plan for humanity. After man sinned God promised a saviour who would fix man`s error and give him that which he has lost, eternal life.

This is the essence of Christianity. You will tell me otherwise if I am wrong.

Here are my thoughts on the above which I shall call "God`s plan".

I have read all of the Old Testament.

In Genesis I don't really see that God promised a saviour but I will continue assuming that it is there and it is just me who cannot see it.

Where in the rest of the OT do any of God`s prophets speak of "God`s plan" ?
I have not found a single word on the subject. So please if you know of a place in the OT that speaks of the need to undo what Adam did in order to reconciled humanity with God and have eternal life, let me know.

Here is a good place where I would have expected a word or two.
NASB Ecclesiastes 9
2 It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear.
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.
4 For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
7 Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.
8 Let your clothes be white all the time, and let not oil be lacking on your head.
9 Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

The author of Ecc 9 is saying that there is one fate for all men, good or bad. All are going to Sheol. What is Sheol? Verse 4,5 and 10 give you some information. There is hope for the living but not for the dead (verse 4). The living know that they will die but the dead know nothing (verse 5). There is no activity, planning, knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (verse 10).

So this would have been the perfect place for this author to tell us that God actually promised humanity a way out. Redemption and eternal life through a saviour. But this author like all of the OT says nothing about "God's plan".


Where did Jesus state his mission as being related to "God's plan".
That is where does Jesus say that he is there to undo what Adam did and reconcile humanity to God. Please tell me, I simply have not found any.

Jesus does state what his mission is about in Matthew 15

Matthew 15
22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."
23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"
You can't have clearer than that. Now people usually say but he granted the woman what she wanted. Yes he did but it does not matter much. Jesus says very plainly that he is not there for all of humanity but only for the people of Israel. How could this be the one to save the world from the fall of mankind. Jesus seems to be unaware of "God's plan".

So what Romans 5 says is contradicted by Matthew 15.


Next...
This is Luke 1, John the baptist's father is speaking.

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Where is the fall of humanity?
Verses 74 and 75 stated the purpose of salvation.
Note "all the days of our life" but where is eternal life given by Jesus' sacrifice as opposed to death brought by Adam's sin (according to Romans 5). Where is God's promise to redeem humanity?


CONCLUSION

If mankind fell
If God promised a saviour to redeem humanity

THEN

a) This theme would have been present throughout the old testament
b) the prophets would have spoken about this very import revelation from God
c) Jesus would have stated THIS as his mission


INSTEAD

We have a vague reference in Genesis and we have Romans 5 and a BIG BIG HOLE in between.

Please explain.

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

Methodissed

Even if this were true (it might be) it absolutely pales in comparison to the carnage that is occuring in our world today between religious people. 20-30 dead kids is horrible, but come on. That's your argument compared to what's happening in our world? Protestants and Catholics killing each other, Hindus and Moslims, Moslims and Jews... So having "belief in God" would matter? That's the very reason we have suicide bombers - 9/11 comes to mind. There were no atheists flying those planes. Are some capable of suicide missions - sure. But you're not likely to see much of it. The reason for most suicide attacks is a false belief in heavenly reward. Incidentally, Christians were guilty of the same mentality during the Crusades.
Yes churches are filled with plenty of smart people. Some of them are rational thinkers, but not in matters that challenge their beliefs! People have a tendency toward religious belief due to the process of evolution. Churches and religious followers take that pre-existing tendency, then tell people what to believe and condition them not to seriously challenge or question their god-beliefs. That of course would be blasphemy and well, god would know your doing it, which would be bad. That eternal torture stuff is a good pitch. The conditioning starts at birth by loved ones through repetition, positive affirmation and fear and continues until death.

So where did all your smart people get their beliefs? Did they compare all the religious and non-religious options and make an informed decision? Or just by chance, are they the same religion as their parents? As you said, people choose to go to church. But, in most cases they don't choose their religion. Interesting that you folks can't agree on which religion or religious sect is right. Because the process of religious selection is based on where you are born, that doesn't exactly instill confidence. Most religions and sects (and there are many) claim to offer the one true path to god. You can't all be right.

I never said I was proposing an unbiased resource. I said it should be "historically and factually accurate" and I described it as a case against religion. Most people have been exposed to plenty of bias from the religious side. I'm interested in offering the other side of the story by sharing facts that the mainstream media is too gutless to publish. For example, I watched a show on the History Channel that covered the history of witchcraft (sorry, I don't recall the title.) While giving a rather limited impression of the extent and voracity of religious persecution toward "witches," they discussed church involvement but neglected to make any mention of Exodus 22:18 - "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." That verse is extremely significant to events in Christian history related to the persucution of hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of innocent women. Why exclude it???

At any rate, if the book I've described ever comes out, you might consider reading it.

Haran

This is a very tiring line in my opinion. It is simply a rhetorical attempt to make atheism appear to be this ethereal and ineffable thing. ...quite convenient, don't you think?

By this fact, and the fact that there are no consequences for any of your actions excepting you get caught here on earth, you can be grouped. My own personal opinion, is that this belief can be every bit as dangerous in the wrong hands as religion gone bad and taken to some wierd extreme. That is my point.

It is not a "bit of hopeful slander". It is my honest belief. I knew kids similar to this growing up. They probably listened to heavy metal music - something like Slayer, etc., played extrememly violent video games... My guess according to experience with similar types of people is that they knew religion and didn't like it because it didn't allow them to do what they wanted. You are perfectly within your rights to say that they were not atheists, but my guess is that they were - or at least were very very close.

Please... Realize that I'm not saying that all atheists are like this. I have a great atheist friend who I know I could trust with many things. I'm simply saying that the beliefs by which atheists can be grouped makes these horrific things every bit as possible as corrupted religion.

That is my honest opinion...

They may have been raised in a Christian home, although I bet that their parents were rather liberal Christians by most standards or the kids got away with a lot of stuff behind the parents' backs. Either way, the kids chose their own path as many here do even though they grew up in Christian homes.

You know? Perhaps you're right though... Perhaps religion or the lack thereof does not play a role. Perhaps it's extremem selfishness, greed, hatred, political motivation (as in the Sept. 11th incident), etc. Just perhaps... Think about it.

It is not petty when some of the very things that may have led to the problems are indeed big problems...violence in video games and movies.

There are other accusations similar to those that have been made against religion that I could make against people who seem to have no belief in a god, etc., but I feel that is petty.

These kinds of generalizations only cause misunderstandings, fear, and hatred and are a pretty big problem in and of themselves.

Just step back from the scenario you've just set up here for a moment and take a look at it... What do you see? If you still see religion, then look again... I see humans mired in politics, envy, greed, and hatred more than religion.

Also, don't forget that communism attempted to supress religion. Some here might think that would be great. Obviously it hasn't worked well. Corruption amongst the non-religious controlling powers ran rampant to the detriment of society as a whole.

I see religion is a vital part of humanity, specifically for me, Christianity, for whatever bad you may see, religions usually make an attempt to help humans help and care for each other. Individuals and institutions may fail but the ideals one which they're based do not necessarily fail.

Regardless, I would imagine that religion will be around till the end of time. If I were you, I'd learn to live with it and appreciate at least some of its aspects.

Sincerely,
Haran

Methodissed

For the record, my early post stating that atheists would not commit such atrocities was poorly worded. I was thinking of atheists like myself. As I've indicated in my other posts, there are good and bad atheists, and yes, they are capable of commiting atrocities. My argument is for the promotion of rational thought in matters that are sensitive to people with religious belief.

Haran

Oh well, I can't express my views much more plainly without rehashing, so I think I'll stop with this post before we get booted to the morality boards.

Take care. In the mean time, as a theist and Christian, I shall do my best to stop all those religious nuts. Better yet, let's all work to figure out how to stop kids from becoming mass murderers!

Haran

Methodissed

Sounds like a plan. Best wishes.

NOGO

Right. What this means to me is to keep them away from the OT and Yahweh. Below is how Yahweh teaches us how to become mass mudereres. Note the bold text and also keep in mind that "1 Samuel 15" took place some 400 years after the exodus from Egypt.

Ex 17:12:16
So Joshua overcame the Amalekite army with the sword. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven." Moses built an altar and called it The LORD is my Banner.
He said, "For hands were lifted up to the throne of the LORD. The LORD will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation."


Dt 25:17:19
Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!


1 Sam 15:2-
This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" ... Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs--everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

lpetrich

I'm sure if the killers in Columbine and in Germany had wanted to justify their actions, they would have found oodles of Biblical support:

God commits mass murder with Noah's Flood.

The Israelites, as they invade the Promised Land, murder the entire population there, an action described very approvingly as having been commanded by Ol' Mr. G. himself. Yes, they are described as comitting genocide.

Elisha curses some boys who had been teasing him about his baldness, and some bears show up and kill 42 of them.

Elijah has a contest with the priests of Baal to see who has the more powerful god. The Biblical God demonstrates that he is more powerful than Baal by killing Baal's priests.

Psalm 137 supports baby killing.

Jesus Christ had sent some demons into some pigs, whereupon they proceeded to stampede into a nearby lake.

JC also cursed a fig tree for not having figs when he was hungry.

Vorkosigan

This is a very tiring line in my opinion. It is simply a rhetorical attempt to make atheism appear to be this ethereal and ineffable thing. ...quite convenient, don't you think?

No. Because we never really specify what we mean by "atheism," so I always bring it out. It's only a lack of belief in gods. It is the opposite of making atheism appear ineffable &lt;sigh of pleasure...what a great word, "ineffable."&gt; By defining it, I make it concrete.

By this fact, and the fact that there are no consequences for any of your actions excepting you get caught here on earth, you can be grouped.

No, I disgree. Every atheist I know believes and behaves that his or her actions have consequences. They simply do not believe that they have god-ordained consequences.

Haran, even assuming that you are correct in this, you face the problem of atheists like buddhists, who do believe that "actions have consequences" in the eternal sense that you imply. Some atheists agree with you. I think that you are again using "atheism" and "metaphysical naturalism" as synonyms.

My own personal opinion, is that this belief can be every bit as dangerous in the wrong hands as religion gone bad and taken to some wierd extreme. That is my point.

Yes, but the Muslims and Christians butchering each other are not taking it to a weird extreme; they are normal people living side by side, shopowners, schoolboys....and the clerics executed in Rwanda did not take religion to some extreme. The issue there is that they did not recognize, despite their alleged moral training and leadership value, the evil of their actions.

I'd be more convinced of your position if I saw members of the Austin Community Atheists murdering members of the North Dallas Church of Freethought. But somehow freethinking atheists don't indulge in that kind of behavior. Why do you think that is?

Just step back from the scenario you've just set up here for a moment and take a look at it... What do you see? If you still see religion, then look again... I see humans mired in politics, envy, greed, and hatred more than religion.

Oh, I see that too. But then you must admit that your religion is impotent or irrelevant, or else you must see the important role that it plays in fostering this evil.

Also, don't forget that communism attempted to supress religion. Some here might think that would be great.

Name one.

Obviously it hasn't worked well.

Too true!

Corruption amongst the non-religious controlling powers ran rampant to the detriment of society as a whole.

Yes, Communism in China and Russia reminds one of the era of Church control in the Dark Ages. Authority is always the same, regardless of its particular manifestation.

Regardless, I would imagine that religion will be around till the end of time. If I were you, I'd learn to live with it and appreciate at least some of its aspects.

I suspect it will be around too. So long as people are indoctrinated at a young age......I've already learned to live with it. Do you think I talk like this outside of Infidels? As for appreciating its aspects.....well, I do like the music, at least.

Vorkosigan