Amie

Not superior, just different.

Clutch

This error has the most pernicious effects on thinking clearly about religion. It usually comes up in discussion about the historicity of gospel, the empty tomb, and so forth: Why would people pretend to believe something they know is false?

The motivational and cognitive determinants of unwarranted belief are widely varied, and can be very subtle indeed. Describing them as lying, pretending, or even "wishful thinking" is not just factually wrong. It also makes the phenomena of belief in miracles and answered prayers unintelligible, when in fact such beliefs rest on an aggregate of errors that we all make quite frequently.

I never pass up a chance to recommend Thomas Gilovich's witty, accessible, and scientifically reliable How We Know What Isn't So. It's a fine primer on the topic, and a great read in general.

philechat

This is the problem. Every "mystical experience" is different with respect to individuals (we can never assume one's subjective experience to be the same as another). So to say Christianity's "prayer" is "different" than say the effect of music or meditation is meaningless, given that "difference" in inherent in all experiences.

There are "a variety of religious experiences" (as William James would point out). I do not see how Christianity's prayer as more "different" (unique?) from all other mystical experiences than the different mystical states between, say, one achieved by meditation and the other by Pagan rituals.

Amie

Hi philechat
Its not any more unique than any others, I feel ultimately prayer accomplishes similar things regardless if one is a Christian, pagan, Jew or Muslim. Its just a different way of getting there.
I think the same thing about heaven, its all the same place its just perceive as differently...

The Other Michael

Hi Steve,

I think you need to leave room for the existence of the delusional - those who actually believe what isn't so, and as such aren't "pretending".

cheers,
Michael

Amie

Hi Michael
you are correct about the no pretending part however no delusions either. I realize that you are one who does not believe what is so and that is ok but praying and believing is not delusional, it is simply not a position you share.

Clutch

In a wide class of cases, people pray most intensely for assistance when things are going very badly, relative to their sense of how things ought to go. And the impetus to pray intensely, with desperation, is much lower when things are going very well, relative to one's sense of how things ought to go.

Hence the very easy mistake of overlooking regression effects can result in the false impression that praying with all one's heart makes things go better, while neglecting to pray with all one's heart allows things to go worse.

But overlooking regression effects is neither pretending, lying, delusional, nor wishful thinking. It's just a garden-variety mistake in reasoning. And it's just one example.

The Other Michael

Hi Amie,

I can understand why you may be sensitive on the issue, but I was only pointing out to Steve an alternative position, which may prove to be only one of several others that he wasn't addressing.

So while some prayors might be delusional, that doesn't necessarily mean that all prayors are delusional. Some may be pretending, some honestly ignorant, and others may have some unknown reasons for praying not covered by the above.

BTW, I'm using prayer/prayor in the same fashion that a welder is used by a weldor.

cheers,
Michael

Ronin

ROFL...<Yul Brynner>Amie, Amie, Amie.,</Yul Brynner>...

My rabbit's foot is magical: I can ask it for anything I want, I can ask it to do anything I want, or to make anything happen, and it will make it happen. I can't explain how it does this, but I know, because it works. I have seen it work many, many times.

Of course, it only grants the requests that are best for me. Sometimes I foolishly ask for things that I shouldn't have, and so it wisely does not grant those requests. I have no idea how it "knows" what is best for me, but it does! It is a lot smarter than me, because a lot of things I ask for that I think would be good for me, it won't let me have them. So somehow they must be not good for me.

I can't explain it, and it's really amazing. When I tell my friends about it, they laugh at me, and tell me I'm superstitious and stupid, but I know that they are just jealous, and are trying to make me stop believing in my foot. No wonder bad things happen to them.



~ Never underestimate the ability of those that are this nonsensical to hide their pretense, even from themselves, because they lack confidence in their own ability to face reality.

It is still just pretend...with a dash of delusional (thanks, Michael) for those who have immersed themselves too deeply in their mad desperation.

Imagine, for a moment, a world where each petitioner was able to effect reality by closing their eyes and wriggling their noses...sweet Tooniverse, ad infinitum!!

PS ~ I am happy to see that you have rested, Amie, and returned to this thread with a fresh energy...no deity required.

SRB

Ronin's position on prayer is mistaken, and quite bizarre. He has a kind of very wild conspiracy theory, every bit as unlikely as a worldwide government cover-up. Why would so many people lie about their belief that prayer works (and live their whole lives pretending to believe what they don't believe)? It boggles the mind. Before I became an atheist I was once religious and I once really believed that prayer works. Almost every ex-religious atheist I have spoken to would say the same. I wonder whether Ronin would say we were the rare honest exceptions, or whether he would say that we are all still lying about what we really believed.

As for my take on prayer, I don't understand the point of it. Is God ever persuaded to do something by a (petitionary) prayer that he wouldn't have done if no prayer had ever been said? If he is persuaded by humans, doesn't that suggest he is rather limited and fallible? I should think that an all-powerful and all-knowing deity would independently know what is for the best and then go ahead and do it, irrespective of what humans ask of him. After all, he knows everything humans know plus more. So what might he ever learn from a human prayer that might change his mind about anything, or influence what he does? On the other hand, if God is never persuaded to do something he wouldn't have otherwise done by prayer, then that implies that (petitionary) prayer is completely ineffective, and hence pointless.

SRB