Claudia

I have difficulties to understand what people means about "low fat" or "low carb" here. I understand the meaning of words, but I lack reference. I suppose it is comparatively to the recommended diet for an healthy people who has not problem of weight.

What are the recommendations for such a people in USA?
In France, they are 15%proteins, 30%fat, 55%glucids (percentage in calories, not in weight).

And what do you consider a lof fat diet? a low carb diet?

Recommendations I have read here are :
-no diet without medical supervision for an obese person
-if some one is only slightly overweighted and want to lose few kilos, he must not reduce the quantity of proteins (in weight) but must reduce together fat and glucids. By removing (some of) added sugar and added fat, and drink only water.

Hans

I haven't read the thread but in case it hasn't been pointed out, regardless of the method, for any fat loss to occur, ketosis is necessary (barring surgical removal). As I understand it, ketosis is the process where body fat is converted into ketones that the body cells in turn use for energy. Whether low carb, low cal, lots of excersise, or any combination of the above, the same ketosis is taking place if body fat is being lost. In other words, any time there is weight loss there is ketosis. To argue ketosis is harmful and should be avoided is to argue that weight loss is harmful and should be avoided.

Thoughts from those more informed than myself?

Dune

<quote>I get my info from medline <quote>
bully for you. I get mine from 1st hand experience.

<quote>and there's not a SINGLE case of ketoacidosis documented,<quote>
Medline doesnt post charts or lists of medical occurences.
I never stated ketoacidosis will always happen. You said it NEVER occurs, I have proof that statement is false.

<quote> which I seriously doubt was an healthy individual anyway as evidence, maybe you should present your astonishing findings to the scientirfic community. <quote>
You can doubt all you like. i doubt the scientific community would find it astonishing.

<quote> CAn you show me asinlg edocumented case of ketoacidosis in a previously healthy individual? No you cant, because there isn't any. <quote>
I am not going to post charts for you.

<quote>The only thig ketosis and ketoacidosis have in common is the prefix "keto". That's it<quote>
So what does ketoacidosis arise from then, if not the accumulation of ketones?

<quote>As I understand it, ketosis is the process where body fat is converted into ketones<quote>
In a very basic sense- yes.

<quote>To argue ketosis is harmful and should be avoided is to argue that weight loss is harmful and should be avoided. <quote>

ketosis isn't harmful. The accumulation of ketones can be. My satement was to monitor ketone buildup to avoid a nasty turn of events, not to imply that ketosis is inheritly dangerous. Ketoacidosis is unlikely to occur in those without insulin problems, but it is best to be safe. Keep in contact with a physician, you may have undiagnosed medical issues that may interfere with your diet.

Hans

Thanks, Dune.

Is my understanding correct that keytones are present (or produced) whenever there is weight loss due to a loss of body fat through dietary restriction? I was left with this impression after reading one of Dr. Atkins diet books.

Dune

<quote>Is my understanding correct that keytones are present (or produced) whenever there is weight loss due to a loss of body fat through dietary restriction? I was left with this impression after reading one of Dr. Atkins diet books.<quote>
ketones are produced when the body has insufficient levels of carbohydrates and levels of acetyl coenzyme A accumulate.
Fatty acids can aslo be burned via beta-oxidation into acetylcoenzyme A and fed into the citric acid cycle and may not be converted into ketone bodies in all instances of fat burning. But I will do more looking into that to be sure.

Maybe Godot knows for certain?

nermal

It's about the same as the US recommendations. No doubt part of the same CFR conspiracy.

Ed

Godot

This does happen, but only at lower energy outputs. When energy requirements increase, this metabolic pathway shuts down and glycolysis takes over.
I can find out at what point in the Krebs cycle fatty acids enter, if anyone is so inclined.

Godot

I have a slight modification to make here:
~15% protein, <30% fat, >55% CHO.

JGL53

For the last seven years, I estimate a breakdown of my diet would be along the lines of ~25% protein, >40% fat, and <35 per cent carbohydrate.

I MUST be extremely unhealthy, huh? Funny, I haven't notice it. Yestersday morning, I biked for one and a half hours, then in the P.M. lifted weights for 20 minutes, then stairclimbed and did the eliptical rider at the gym for 15 minutes each. How I found the energy to do all that, apparently god(ot) only knows.

Actually, I'm apparently eating about the right amount of calories daily. I think THAT is the more important thing - once one insures the necessary vitamins, etc. are being consumed.

I just finished reading The Fat Fallacy by Dr. Will Clower - which is his analysis of why the French don't have a national obesity problem - and America does. If anyone were to decide to read a "diet' booK just for informational purposes, THIS would be the one to read.

It seems that there is little if any fake food, fast food, "reduced fat" or " fat free" pre-prepared food available in France. They tend to eat fresh food, freshly prepared.

And, they aren't nutritional scientists, anymore than are the American public. In addition to a variety of fresh vegetables and fruit, they eat a certain amount of butter on bagettes, and eat cheese at many meals, and put chopped eggs, crumbled bacon and blue cheese dressings on salads, and enjoy goose liver pate, cream sauce on meat dishes, etc., etc.

I've read articles that supposedly quote studies that the French diet is around 42% fat - but what does it matter, really, in the end?

There is a cultural difference here - the French eat long, drawn out meals, eating small bites, and this tends to allow an intake of the proper amount of calories.

(THAT is what counts in the end, and THAT is what we all can agree on - regarding a healthy maintenance dit, that is - we will always disagree, apparently, on the usefulness of the Atkins induction with it's ketosis.)

In contrast to the French, Americans eat huge meals, in a hurry (but, I've already gone into this in detail in a previous post).

The title of this (my) thread still stands. Low fast sucks - i.e., in reference to the government's recommendation of eating <30 per cent fat (recently changed to <35 %). This has just resulting in overconsumption of sugar in the last 25 years of so (also explained in detail in a previous post).

Low carb still rules - in terms of the Atkins program being the safest (re 'bad/good' blood cholesterol, increasing the metabolism rather than suppressing it, etc.), efficient, and most effective way to burn off decades of body fat in a relative short period of time.

However, after reading 'The Fat Fallacy', I have become convinced now that the Atkins diet can be a transition state to eating "the French way" for many. After reaching a healthy weight (this is THE problem now for many, many Americans) using Atkin's methods, and avoiding all the fake foods available, many if not most should be able to increase the per cent of healthy starchy foods (corn, rice, whole grain, potatoes) while still avoiding fake pre-prepared foods that have had many of the nutrients and fiber taken out. etc.

nermal

Hmmm, maybe the human body is an adaptable thing, able to exist on a variety of diets within limits. Bet your daily caloric intake is about on the mark, eh? Eat many cheese fries, do you?

Geeze, I made this point a while ago, and got pretty beat up about it as I recall. I wasn't funny enough, or something.

Bet if you look at the fat content of "real food" it's about in the 30-40% range, and the caloric density isn't nearly as high as the typical American diet. Reduced and "fat free" have nothing to do with it--it's serving size that's the problem.

And they eat reasonable serving sizes. Their caloric intake isn't astronomical. And they eat about 15 different vegetables, compared to about 5 for the average American. Hmmm, wonder what the increased vegetable content of their meals does to overall caloric intake?

Didn't they raise the fat recommendations because people just couldn't meet the target?

Low carb is crap. Low fat is crap. Gimmicks of all sorts are crap. Eat a lot of veggies, and modest portions of whatever else you want. Stay active. Throw the tv out the window. Use the money you'd waste on "diet" books like Atkins et. al. to perform proper maintenance on your bicycle.


Ed