Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ed · 10-29-2002, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:


Deut 21
10 "When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive,
11 and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself,
12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails.
13 "She shall also remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.
14 "It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not mistreat her, because you have humbled her.

I know Ed you will be tempted to say that this is regular marriage but it isn't. Regular marriages cannot be broken that easily.[/b]

Actually in ancient Israel regular marriages could be broken very easily, all the husband had to do was say that his wife displeased her and they could get a divorce. Remember Christ addressed this and said that it was allowed for a time but marriage was not originally intended this way and gave the only true grounds for divorce in which it was much more difficult to get one.

[b]

Quote:

ng: The woman above is a slave and she is being raped with the blessing of Yahweh.

Note the "you have humbled her".
I did not know that you can humble a woman by marrying her. Sounds more like rape to me. The word marriage in this text is a euphemism for the sexual act.

No, it says "you shall not mistreat her", that is evidence that he would not rape her. Also, the humbling referred to is probably the killing of her family. Another thing to remember is that in ancient times for a woman not to have a husband was just about a death sentence by starvation or involuntary prostitution. In ancient times having a husband was the only security a woman could have and the only way she could survive. So most of these women, even though of course they were upset by the deaths of their families and in fact were allowed to mourn them in peace see the verses above, probably were somewhat relieved to get married since that is the only way their future and any children they may have could be secure.

NOGO · 10-31-2002, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Actually in ancient Israel regular marriages could be broken very easily, all the husband had to do was say that his wife displeased her and they could get a divorce. Remember Christ addressed this and said that it was allowed for a time but marriage was not originally intended this way and gave the only true grounds for divorce in which it was much more difficult to get one.

I do not have time to answer this one now but I will later. It was illegal to divorce and I will prove it to you. You are contradicting yourself. Below you state that women could not survive without a husband yet you say that it was easy for the husband to divorce. I would bet that there would then be a lot of helpless women around.

Quote:

No, it says "you shall not mistreat her", that is evidence that he would not rape her. Also, the humbling referred to is probably the killing of her family. Another thing to remember is that in ancient times for a woman not to have a husband was just about a death sentence by starvation or involuntary prostitution. In ancient times having a husband was the only security a woman could have and the only way she could survive. So most of these women, even though of course they were upset by the deaths of their families and in fact were allowed to mourn them in peace see the verses above, probably were somewhat relieved to get married since that is the only way their future and any children they may have could be secure.

Open your eyes!
These women were captured in battle. Other people like teenage boys who captured in battle were simply killed. These women were kept for sexual purposes and then let go to fend for themselves.

So from the Bible verses that I posted, You are actually saying that Yahweh allowed men to abandon their foreign wives whenever they wanted and for no reason, knowing that they had no chance for survival. That is your moral God?

"Humbled her" means raped. This is so because if they had left them as virgins they could sell them. If you read the text properly you will notice that it says that they could not sell them because they had been humbled.

Eudaimonist · 10-31-2002, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed:
So most of these women, even though of course they were upset by the deaths of their families and in fact were allowed to mourn them in peace see the verses above, probably were somewhat relieved to get married since that is the only way their future and any children they may have could be secure.

Relieved?!? Their loved ones were murdered, and they have been given no option other than to live every last day of their lives "married" to the murderers!

Relieved? Try a living nightmare!

Do you realize how abominable your words are?

NOGO · 10-31-2002, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Eudaimonist
Do you realize how abominable your words are?

No he doesn't.
His purpose is to fix the problem no matter what.

NOGO · 10-31-2002, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Deut 21
14 "It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not mistreat her, because you have humbled her.

"you shall let her go wherever she wishes"

It does not say that you can divorce her.
"let her go wherever she wishes" means free from slavery. That is why the very next thing it says is the issue of not selling her for money.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

Ed · 10-31-2002, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDruid:
Ed wrote:
Any system of humanistic morality is irrational because without God there is no rational basis to treat humans any different from any other animal.

dd: Ed, suppose God appears in front of you and tells you :"Ed, go kill your neighbor, - he is the devil in disguise" and then vanishes. Assuming you don't kill your neighbor, you are already applying moral principles not derived from God.

I think all sane Christians use a non-godly standard of morality to filter what God purportedly told them to do in the bible, whether they admit it or not. [/b]

The scriptures tell us that any dream, vision, or teaching that a Christian experiences should always be judged by the word of God, ie the bible. Therefore, since God has commanded explicitly that we should love our neighbor and not kill them and also since satan is a spiritual being and cannot be killed by humans, we should ignore such a vision.

[b]

Quote:

dd: For example, most Christians no longer hold that mere thinking of adulterous thoughts deserves the death penalty. Here also they are applying a standard of morality not derived from God or bible.

Neither historic Christianity nor the scriptures teach or have ever taught that thinking adulterous thoughts deserves the death penalty.

NOGO · 11-01-2002, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Ed
The scriptures tell us that any dream, vision, or teaching that a Christian experiences should always be judged by the word of God, ie the bible.

Ed here is showing us how far one can push the absurd.

He is saying that even if God appeared right in front of him and told him that the Bible was written by men and had nothing to do with Him. Ed would not believe Him.

[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

Ed · 11-03-2002, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless:
Even God himself is a rapist, Ed.

Isaiah 13:9-16 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger,, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land. Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished..

No, this was just a prediction of what was going to be done to the women of Israel by their enemies.

Jack the Bodiless · 11-04-2002, 07:20 AM

By GOD, Ed. By GOD.

This is the LORD coming to punish SINNERS! The actual rapists may be human enemies of Israel, but this form of punishment was ordained by God.

God will punish these men by having their children dashed to pieces and their wives raped.

Therefore God is a babykiller and a rapist, or leader of rapists. Even if it isn't HIS penis involved (though the text doesn't rule that out, especially as other Biblical verses indicate that God has humanoid body parts).

Jack the Bodiless · 11-04-2002, 07:24 AM

...And where do you get the notion that the captured virgins would starve if they weren't "married"?

Women can't herd goats?

Unbelievable!

In most societies of this nature, the women do most of the work...

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11-04-2002, 07:20 AM	#189
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	By GOD, Ed. By GOD. This is the LORD coming to punish SINNERS! The actual rapists may be human enemies of Israel, but this form of punishment was ordained by God. God will punish these men by having their children dashed to pieces and their wives raped. Therefore God is a babykiller and a rapist, or leader of rapists. Even if it isn't HIS penis involved (though the text doesn't rule that out, especially as other Biblical verses indicate that God has humanoid body parts).

11-04-2002, 07:24 AM	#190
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	...And where do you get the notion that the captured virgins would starve if they weren't "married"? Women can't herd goats? Unbelievable! In most societies of this nature, the women do most of the work...

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