brighid

Oh please! No one, has ever made the ascertation that parents aren't important. Have you read the links I posted? Nor have I EVER said SAH parents are not preferred over working parents, or that working parents are preferrable. I have made the argument that working parents aren't the irresponsible, terrible parents you and yguy have made them out to be and that SAH parenting isn't the ideal situation simply because a mother stays at home. Is there something about that you simply don't understand?

Brighid

fatherphil

i got the impression from you that a parent could be simply replaced by a caregiver for the lion's share of a child's day with no negative effect on that child's relationship with said parent.

and you toss out a statement like "parents are important" in the same manner i toss out some of my thoughts (as a given) yet i'm asked to present data to prove the statement.

and i've stayed out of yguy & your conversation so it is of little relavence to me. i've never said working parents were terrible but rather there is a real cost to the situation which seems to have not enough importance placed on it in the decision making process of whether a parent should or should not work. i've postulated an ideal situation which seems to ruffle feathers and i wonder why that would be? what would you think the ideal family set up for the children's upbringing be?

brighid

You developed the WRONG impression. A parent cannot be "replaced" (unless of course they are a bad parent and another adult caregiver can do a better job), but other adults can and do provide adequate, nurturing and proper care and instruction of a child in the parents absence.

I have been countering the claims that somehow stay at home parenting is THEE best and cannot be replaced, and that working parents are harming their children by placing them in day care (isn't that your position?)

Please, if you have taken time to read all the relevant conversations in this thread you have done yourself a disservice in attempting to formulate an accurate conclusion about my pov.

I say it is incorrect that the decisions working parents make aren't given enough importance, or adquate thought. Frankly I find that statement rather arrogant and uninformed. It assumes that SAHP think through the decisions more then working parents do. That is just plain nonesense. It also assumes that working parents somehow care less for the wellbeing of their children because they work. Again, pure nonesense. Yes, your statements ruffled alot of feathers because you assert that a SAH mother IS the best choice (and not a stay-at-home father) and therefore is IPSO FACTO superior to another situation that you cannot even conclusively prove WILL and DOES have a negative impact on a child.

My premise is that QUALITY parenting is key, and the studies and articles I sited support that (as well as my own experience as a working parent, and the testimony of many other working parents on this thread.) The fact that our children aren't messed up monsters, that we do carefully consider what is best for our children and make a decision that isn't "traditional" seems to make your supposition fall on its face.

I believe I have outlined what I would like to see more of: modeling Norway, Sweden, Netherlands and other European countries. I would like to see a minimum of 6 months paid maternity/paternity leave so parents aren't forced back to work before a mother has physically healed from the trauma of birth (my healing process was a year due to the enormous amount of trauma suffered.) I would like to see inexpensive, high-quality day care available to all parents (and not simply for the well to do). I would like to see the stigma removed for both working and SAHPs, especially for fathers who have chosen to stay at home. I would like to see the "traditional" gender roles for both men and women discarded for practical solutions that the individual chooses to be right for their situation. I would like to see more social and employer support for pregnant women (without the guilt and negative impact it has on her job or career). Pre and post natal care should be free. I would also like to see parenting, child development and psychology classes freely (or cheaply) available to all prospective parents. That is just a start. Furthermore I would like to see people who don't know a damned thing about my life, or situation assuming that I am a deficient parent because I work. I would also like them to stop assuming that I don't carefully consider what is best for my child because I don't stay home. Such assumptions are rude, arrogant and completely uninformed.

I would be nice if we could live on one income, but reality is very different. I think it would be incredibly negligent of me to allow my child to live in a dangerous enviroment (like a neighborhood we could live in on one income) so I could do the dutiful thing and stay home like a woman should. That negligence would be further exasperated by the sub-par school systems he would have to attend, thereby disabling his future ability to compete in a highly competative world. I would be negligent to be unable to afford the repairs his teeth needs, or the medication he may need when ill, etc. etc.

I would love to work part-time, and hopefully that will work out. I would even love to be able to stay home for the first year of our next child's life. I work because I have to. I work because my family needs things today (and nothing fancy for sure) and I want a better future for them. I work to set a positive example and I work to better myself.

Contemplating having another child brings all these concerns to the forefront: Can we afford to have another child? Can we afford to lose part, or all of my income? In a failing economy would it be foolish for me to give up a good paying job with excellent benefits, and seniority? What happens if my husband looses his job? Will I be able to get another job of equal pay? What can we do to decrease our monthly costs? If I stop working now will we be able to afford college for our 9 year old when he is of age? Would we be forced to move and uproot our child(ren) from a fantastic school system, a safe neighborhood, and close friends and family? How will that impact our child, our family and marriage? Will I be happy staying home full time? How would my unhappiness impact my marriage and family? What sort of stress will my husband be under as the sole bread-winner in a partnership that has otherwise been equal? Is he willing and able to handle that stress? Will that effect our marriage and family in an exceptable way? Do we have other alternatives? Will the cost of quality day care be too high to make it worth continued employment? What plan should we have 6 months, 1 year, 5 and 10 years from now? Could I work a homebased business that would bring in half or the same amount of income I have now? How will my decisions effect my child and any new child we have/bring into our family? And so much more!

I think these are the typical questions the vast majority of working parents ask themselves. The decisions they make are theirs and not open for your criticism or judgment because they don't fit some traditional model.

I see little to no negative impact for a child who is placed in responsible, quality day care who also has loving, responsible, quality parents. I see negative impact in all situations where bad parenting and neglect impact decision making regardless if a parents work, or one stays at home.

Brighid

yguy

During the time period in which the child remains uncorrected, again, what is the alternative?

To be sure. A parent can always smack the kid around enough, physically or otherwise, to put an end to the problem in the short term.

What are we talking about here, fixing a few lines of computer code? What if the child doesn't WANT to be corrected? You think that ever happens? Obviously it does, so what do you do, intimidate them into behaving?

"But are they necessarily the best people for the job? I couldn't answer this until I know what a specific child needs from them and what they are able to give this child."

Parents are duty bound to put up with a certain degree of irresponsibility in their children. Paid providers can cut and run when the going gets tough.

fatherphil

my posts are not that long but do require thought. i said:

"there is a real cost to the situation which seems to have not enough importance placed on it in the decision making process of whether a parent should or should not work"

do you see the difference?

i don't have enough time to read it all so if you could break things down to the main point it'll be much easier.

yguy

I wish. It wasn't conservatives who induced us to spend trillions over the last few decades in a putative attempt to end poverty which ended up creating more poverty by demoralizing the recipients of that money.

brighid

No. What difference are you speaking of? You say that you feel not enough thought is given to the situation as to whether or not a parent should work. I say you are wrong. What else am I missing?

Brighid

fatherphil

could you quote where i said "not enough thought is given to the situation".

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by yguy
During the time period in which the child remains uncorrected, again, what is the alternative?

What time period would this be? I would think it varies according to the situation, and even in a situation with a time period, the parent has some option other than "putting up with it".

What does this have to do with putting infants in day care, by the way?

To be sure. A parent can always smack the kid around enough, physically or otherwise, to put an end to the problem in the short term.

If this is the parent's solution to dealing with the problem, the child might be better off with a care provider.

What are we talking about here, fixing a few lines of computer code? What if the child doesn't WANT to be corrected? You think that ever happens? Obviously it does, so what do you do, intimidate them into behaving?

I don't think the only two choices a parent has are "put up with it" and "intimidate the child".

Parents are duty bound to put up with a certain degree of irresponsibility in their children.

This is your definition of parenthood. It may not be everyone's. And I doubt that many people could agree on what degree of irresponsibility is all right.

Paid providers can cut and run when the going gets tough.

So can parents. And again, what does this have to do with the topic of babies in day care, unless you wish to discuss the correction of infants?

brighid

I see you stated "importance" and not thought, however I interpreted that to mean basically the same thing but if you meant it in a different sense then I stand corrected.

Brighid