Biff the unclean

Ed: The thinking of humans is not just quantitatively different but also qualitatively different, ie animals do not have a moral conscience or a true will. Also they cannot think abstractly

I spend a good deal of my time working on interspecies communication with Eastern lowland Gorillas. And you couldn't be more incorrect. They can think, in fact our female has an IQ in the mid 80's on the Stanford test. They have a highly developed morality, more highly developed than ours, which is sometimes a problem. It is just not human morality. They have true wills. Their decisions are thought out and not instinctual. They do think in the abstract, they tell jokes, they make up stories. They tell lies. They plan for the future. They make representational paintings. They can follow simple maps. They associate written words with the objects and people the words represent. They consider the consequences of their actions before they implement them.

lpetrich

Ed:
No, but once they reach a certain age I think most people DO instinctively know that a Creator exists.

I don't, and there are lots of religions that do not feature anything close to the Xian God as traditionally understood.

And when they learn basic principles of logic they can learn that the Christian God is the only creator god that could logically exist.

Your Eddianness, I challenge you to demonstrate that statement. Prove that Allah, for example, is logically incoherent. And the same for every other cause of the Universe that has ever been posited.

No, if you teach children about the logical basis and truth of Christianity, the rest of their life they will be living the most rational and fulfilling life possible.

Except that it often isn't -- simply read some deconversion stories here and at http://www.secularlife.org

And Xianity is not even a unified front. Does Ed:

Accept the authority of the Pope as Jesus Christ's appointed Church leader while he is away?
Believe that clergypeople ought to be celibate men?
Pray to Jesus Christ's mother and to various saints?
Confess his sins to a priest?
Eat those sacred Communion crackers and drink that sacred Communion wine?
Believe them to be the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, but with all the observable properties of bread and wine?

And in fact will protect them from being brainwashed by cults and irrational naturalistic philosophies such as the secular humanism that many public schools inculcate into children.

First, what are "cults"? Any religions that Ed dislikes?

How can "naturalistic philosophies" be irrational when they are widely slammed as being too rational?

And where are the schools that have some naturalistic-philosophy statement of belief that students must sign to get anywhere?

Starboy

Biff that is just too cool. The imagined worlds of mankind pale in comparison to actual reality. Ain't the universe grand.

Starboy

NOGO

Yes, it is true that these subjects have been dealt with however your have totally failed to justify what the Bible says. Instead you wish to ignore direct and clear statements in a vain attempt to whitewash the issues.

This answer speaks volumes. I note that you call them Moses's laws and not God's laws. That sounds better because we are comparing human laws against human laws. If we were comparing God's laws with human laws you would not need to make such a bland statement as the one above.


Wow! and when did you run cosmological history backwards to verify this fact?

Show me the evidence that supports this statement?

I am sure that you too can see the difference between the Swedish people and the Greeks. There are characteristic differences between many people in Europe and they are all white in race.

I am not kidding. Perhaps, I am just less ignrant than you are.
Have you ever travelled?

I am not making the statement that these poeple never sinned, the BIble is.

Ed

No, I am claiming that all EFFECTS have causes. Not all THINGS.

Quote:

ng: 3) Therefore the clay must have a cause. 4) God is the cause. The problem with this logic is obvious. In all the cases above the clay was and the clay is. None of the cases above can every allow you to logically deduce that the clay must have a cause. The fundamental material of the universe is not clay; it is energy. Energy can be modified, transformed but it has never been observed to be created nor destroyed. Therefore the so called law of causality cannot be used to infer anything about the basic material of the universe, ie energy. Energy was and energy is. In eveything that man has done or observed, energy was and energy is. You cannot claim that since everything else has a cause then energy must have a cause as well. This is not logical. Beethoven's bust is a form independent of the material used. It is the form which has a cause and not the basic material. All the cause-effect relationships ever observed are concerning forms and not the basic material. This is the reason that your argument is flawed.

No, the evidence points to energy and matter coming into existence at the big bang. Energy has not always existed. If run cosmological history backwards you come to a point with no dimensions therefore Nothing.

Ed

See my posts to Jack and Nogo above where I demonstrate that these verses do not teach a flat earth nor geocentrism.

Quote:

fiach: 800 years of correct knowledge of the spherical earth were lost by Christian suppression of science until 1492 when Columbus embarassed the Church by proving the Bible wrong. Fiach

Actually this is a myth. Educated western Europeans knew the earth was round long before Columbus. Read "The Discoverers" by Daniel J. Boorstin.

Ed

Confused.

Quote:

ng: Gen 1:6-9 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. The firmament or heaven separates water above from waters below. The waters below are obviously the oceans and lakes etc. but what are the waters above? Note that firmament and heaven are the same.

Actually a better translation for "firmament" is expanse, which can mean open space in addition to something solid. The contextual evidence points to open space being the best translation.

Quote:

ng: Gen 1:14-18 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. So the firmament or heaven which separates water from water also contain the sun, moon and stars. So the waters above the firmament are also above the sun, moon and stars. Psalms|104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: Psalms|104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: Psalms|104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: Psalms|104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. Psalms|104:6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains. Psalms|104:7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. Psalms|104:8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. Psalms|104:9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth. Psalms|104:10 He sendeth the springs into the valleys, which run among the hills Psalms|104:11 They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst. Psalms|104:12 By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, which sing among the branches. Psalms|104:13 He watereth the hills from his chambers: the earth is satisfied with the fruit of thy works God's chambers are on the waters. Note also that clouds are like chariots to ride in. Note the last line. He waters the hills from his chambers not from the clouds. Now which waters are we talking about in Ps 104:3 ? Could it be the waters below the firmament? Well rain usually falls straight down. If God waters the hills from his chambers then his chambers are somewhere above the hills. So if it isn't clouds then his chambers whose foundations are in the waters must be in the waters above the firmament. So the waters above the firmament are used for rain as also confirmed in the verses below. Deuteronomy 28:12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: Genesis 8:1-2 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged; The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained Windows of heavens are more like opening in the firmament through which water falls than clouds. So the waters above are for rain. Job 38:22, "Have you entered the storehouse of the snow, and seen the treasury of the hail?" Deut 28:12 The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. These two verses shows that God stored snow and hail in some chamber or vault. Job 11: 7-8 Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty? They are high as the heavens, what can you do? Deeper than Sheol, what can you know? Its measure is longer than the earth And broader than the sea. Psalm 103: 11-12 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him. As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us. In the verses above the height of heaven above the earth is spoken in term which make it comparable to 1) The deapth of Sheol 2) earth's length 3) the size of the sea 4) the distance between east and west Sheol is below ground so an upper limit to this measure is 4000 miles since that would take us to the center of the earth. Both 2 and 3 can be as much as 8,000 miles since that is the earth's diameter. The size of the sea can actually be more that the earth's diameter but cannot be more than the earth's circumference which is 24,000 miles. The pacific ocean can be as much as 10,000 miles. So the height of heavens is at most 10,000 miles which does not even get you to the moon which is at 238,000 miles. Yet Genesis says that God placed the moon the sun and the stars in the firmament. This shows the position of the throne above the firmament but also it shows the relatively closeness of the "great cloud" in verse 4, the creatures which are cherubim, the firmament above their heads and the throne above the firmament. So the throne of God is just above the firmament which is like a terrible crystal streatched out above the heads of the cherubins. Also the firmament is a solid surface Rev 6:12-15 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Note that the story continues despite the fact that stars fell to earth. Today we know that if a single star falls to earth then the end would be immediate. Evidently stars falling like late figs convey an immage of stars as being small lights in the firmament just above the earth. Many of these small lights can fall without grave consequences. Revelation 12:4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. This shows that the stars in Revelation are not meteorites. Note also that the heaven rolled up like a scroll. Again this conveys an image that heaven or firmament is a surface. THE SUN Ps 19:4:6 ... In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat. It is claimed that this is poetry. Yet the imagery must be noted since it is based on belief. The analogy of the sun movement is with a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion. The pavilion is the tent which God has pitched for the sun. The bride is like a champion rejoicing to run his course. The sun rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other. The conclusion is this. The sun comes out of its tent, and run its course which is from one end the heavens to the other end. There is no concept he of a continuous movement. There is a start and there is an end. Rather the imagery is like that of a champion coming out of his pavillion rejoicing to run his course. So there is definitely a start and an end to the sun's path, each day. Ecclesiastes 1:5 Also, the sun rises and the sun sets; And hastening to its place it rises there again. Note the "hastening to its place". So the sun returns to its place ready to rise again. Again there is no concept that the sun's movement is continuous. The sun rushes to its place ready to rise again. Job 9:7 Who is speaking to the sun, and it riseth not, And the stars He sealeth up. This simply shows that the sun is ordered not to rise. It is not the earth that is ordered not to turn. Joshua 10:12-14 On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon." So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a man. Surely the LORD was fighting for Israel! Again the sun is ordered to stop and it delays going down. The movement is that of the sun not the earth. FLAT-EARTH Daniel 4:7-8, "I saw a tree of great height at the center of the world. It was large and strong, with its top touching the heavens, and it could be seen from the ends of the earth." This was allegedly an inspired dream, yet it conveys a flat-earth concept, because no matter how tall a tree would be, people on the other side of a spherical earth could not see it. Matthew 4:8, "The devil took him (Jesus) to a very high mountain and displayed before him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence...." The only plausible reason for the "very high mountain" was that the altitude would make it possible to see to the ends of the earth. Only on a flat earth would this be remotely possible, so the New Testament writers were as ignorant as the Old. EARTH FOUNDATIONS Psalm 104: 5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. I Sam 2:8 "For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them. Isa 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. I Chron 16:30 Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. There are many more like the above. BACK TO HEAVEN Isaiah 40:22 "It is he (God) that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in." He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. First a circle is not a sphere as some pretend. "... the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers," from where God sits humans are as grasshoppers. This shows the relative height from which God views the earth. The text suggests that God sees humans from a great height so that they appear the size of grasshoppers. This height cannot be light years away, nor can it be just a few feet. "stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in." This sentence compare the heavens to a tent. In which way can the heavens look like a tent? Picture a tent over a globe ... does this resemble heavens? So what can it poosbly mean? we have seen 1) the earth is flat and on a foundation. It does not move. 2) the sun runs its course from one end of heavens to the other and then rushes to its place to rise again 3) the stars fall to earth as figs 4) rain water is above the firmament along with the storehouse for snow and hail. 5) God waters the hills from his chambers 6) the cherubim is Ezekiel 1:26 which were just below the firmament and God's throne was right above it. 7) the heavens rolled up like a scroll 8) God called the firmament, heaven in Genesis. Conclusions The heavens or firmament is like a tent stretched out over a flat earth. Note that the heavens rolled up like a scroll in Rev 6:14 it is therefore a surface and it looks like a tent. The earth is a circle, a flat circle over which is a domelike surface (like a tent) Above the dome are sorehouses for snow, rain, hail, wind etc. which are sent down to earth by God Above the dome is also God's throne and chambers Below the dome is the sun, moon and stars. The sun enters into the dome from his chamber at one end of the heavens and travels to the other end. It then exits and rushes to its position to re-enter again. How does this compare with the Book of Enoch. Enoch [Chapter 72] The book of the courses of the luminaries of the heaven, the relations of each, according to their classes, their dominion and their seasons, according to their names and places of origin, and according to their months, which Uriel, the holy angel, who was with me, who is their guide, showed me; and he showed me all their laws exactly as they are, and how it is with regard to all the years of the world and unto eternity, till the new creation is accomplished which dureth till eternity. And this is the first law of the luminaries: the luminary the Sun has its rising in the eastern portals of the heaven, and its setting in the western portals of the heaven. And I saw six portals in which the sun rises, and six portals in which the sun sets and the moon rises and sets in these portals, and the leaders of the stars and those whom they lead: six in the east and six in the west, and all following each other in accurately corresponding order Notice that the sun enters the dome of heaven from the east through 6 portals and exits in the west through 6 portals. Enoch goes on to describe this in detail, for example verses 8 and 9 When the sun rises in the heaven, he comes forth through that fourth portal thirty mornings in succession, and sets accurately in the fourth portal in the west of the heaven. Enoch Chapter 75 v6-9 As for the twelve portals in the heaven, at the ends of the earth, out of which go forth the sun, moon, and stars, 7 and all the works of heaven in the east and in the west, There are many windows open to the left and right of them, and one window at its (appointed) season produces warmth, corresponding (as these do) to those doors from which the stars come forth according as He has commanded them, 8 and wherein they set corresponding to their number. And I saw chariots in the heaven, running 9 in the world, above those portals in which revolve the stars that never set. Compare all this to Ps 19:4:6 ... In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat. Right on! The sun runs its course from one end of the heavens to the other end ie from the eartern portals to western portals. Ecclesiastes 1:5 Also, the sun rises and the sun sets; And hastening to its place it rises there again. "Hastening to its place" again suggests a return path outside the dome in preparation for another run. Isaiah 40:22 "It is he (God) that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in." Indeed the heavens are like a tent ie a dome which the sun, moon and star enter run their courses and exit at appointed times. Enoch chapter 72 v37 ... and his light (the sun) is sevenfold brighter than that of the moon; but as regards size they are both equal. Note that Joshua ordered "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon." Since the sun is much larger than earth it is impossible for the sun to stop over a city. The idea that the sun and moon can stop over different places on earth clearly shows the belief stated in Enoch 37 that the sun and moon were the same size. Rev 6:12-15 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Revelation talks about one third of the stars falling to earth and then the next third etc. so these are not meteorites. The stars are little lights much smaller than the sun and moon according to Enoch and this is what is reflected in Revelations. Again the dome of heaven which departs like a scroll ie a surface. Enoch Chapter 34 v2-3 . And here I saw three portals of heaven open in the heaven: through each of them proceed north winds: when they blow there is cold, hail, frost, 3 snow, dew, and rain. Compare this to Genesis 8:1-2 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged; The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained Windows of heavens are openings in the dome of heaven through which water falls. I can go on but it is no use to beat a dead horse.

I have already dealt with most of these verses in my earlier posts to you and Jack. And also there is evidence that the ancient hebrews knew that rain came from clouds not any literal windows of heaven. Read I Kings 18:41-45.

Jack the Bodiless

You didn't. So you're hallucinating again.
No, it doesn't. The Hebrews believed in a flat Earth covered by a solid firmament dome, and THAT is the "context" throughout the Bible.

By now, you know this. So you're lying.
There are no "earlier posts" in which you refuted this. And as for I Kings 18:41-45:
Just how smart do you have to be to notice that rain is associated with clouds? Even cattle know that! But that's ALL the Bible says.

You're pulling this off an apologetic website somewhere, yes? Maybe you should actually read the verses and THINK about what they say before embarrassing yourself further?

NOGO

What evidence?

NOGO

You are a joke, Ed.
The contextual evidence shows that it was a surface.
Enoch shows that it was a surface.
Most scholars say that it was a surface.
I take it that you have nothing better to say on the subject than to repeat your mislead belief.


You have dealt with nothing. The evidence that I have given you is conclusive. You have not scratched the surface in your attempt to answer this issue.

Some later hebrew people knew that clouds made rain but it is obvious that most early text had no idea as the verses that I quoted clearly show.