Lobstrosity

No, yguy, they lead to unproven assumptions. There is a difference. This is why no one can claim to know something pertaining to the real world for certain. You can have good reason to believe something, but in the end there is always some level of uncertainty. You delude yourself when you try to pretend this uncertainty isn't there. In math we have axioms because we set the axioms first and then build math from them. They are predefined as fundamental truths for that abstract universe and then we carry on from there. In the abstract world of math we know all of the axioms with absolute certainty. In the real world there are no axioms.

Sure, it's a non sequitur, but so is the idea that you can know god exists because you do feel him. I see David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty vanish and therefore conclude that magic exists. I see Baltimore get nuked in The Sum of All Fears and therefore conclude that Baltimore no longer exists. It's all piss-poor reasoning.

Ok, well whatever tells me that 1+1=2 tells me that God doesn't exist. It's just self-evident (seriously, I'm not lying--it's blindingly obvious to me that there's no intelligence actively governing the dynamics of this universe). However I hardly use that as justification for my beliefs and I hardly mistake it for "knowledge." If the only reason you can give for something is "I just know," then it's time to re-evaluate how much certainty you place in your beliefs as they are probably wrong (e.g. based on emotion or biases rather than reason). I think you can see that ideas built solely on the fact that they're self-evidence and nothing more are usually just self-delusions (e.g. either your self-evident knowledge is wrong or mine is, so self-evidence isn't all it's cracked up to be, now is it?).

Worldtraveller

quote:Originally posted by yguy
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As for God's influence in natural events, I've suggested in my "probability and science" thread that He is the cause of random particle motion such as that of electrons, since the only other explanation yet offered is that nothing is the cause of such motion. Don't ask for proof, because I don't have it any more than do those who say such motion is uncaused.
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quote:
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Originally posted by Abacus
How do you know this? Why only one?
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And how do you know that all those competing divine wills in the quantum committee aren't what's causing the fluctuations?

Sounds like a better theory than the one you have. :P

-Lane

yguy

That 1+1=2 within the bounds of any meaningful mathematical paradigm now understood by man is not an assumption, it is a fact. If it is not, than there are no facts - in which case it can hardly be a fact it is impossible to know anything for certain.

My existence pertains to the real world. I know I exist. Therefore, you are incorrect.

There is no uncertainty with regard to knowledge of my existence and the like. You have to believe there is in order to deny the intellectual disadvantage you create for yourself by asserting the impossibility of knowledge.

Nonsense. Murder is always wrong. Always, always, always. Determining whether any particular homicide IS murder may be problematic, but once you ascertain that it is, you know the person has done wrong.

This, I believe is the second time I've had to correct you for substituting "feel" for "know". Why do you keep doing that?

But you don't just see the Statue of Liberty vanish, you also see that it is coming to you through a medium which can be manipulated to distort perception. It is in light of similar caveats as applied to the metaphysical world that I believe God exists.

But I thought you just assumed 1+1=2. If that's the case, you are also assuming God doesn't exist.

Maybe not, but you're not telling the truth either.

Fine. You start re-evaluating how much certainty you place in 1+1=2, and I'm right behind you.

Therefore, your existence is self-delusion. Somehow, such profound insights tend to become decidedly uncompelling at the first brush with death.

Kimpatsu

Just as I keep telling you, Yguy, 1+1=10. Ask your PC. And you don't exist. You are merely a figment of the Red King's dream. So your "knowledge" is bogus. And so are you. QED.

Jesse

yguy:
Nonsense. Murder is always wrong. Always, always, always. Determining whether any particular homicide IS murder may be problematic, but once you ascertain that it is, you know the person has done wrong.

I think it's nonsense to compare this kind of certainty with our certainty of the truth of 1+1=2. People all have a clear idea of what numbers like "1" and "2", in a binary way where it's easy to identify whether you a particular collection includes a certain number of members or not. In contrast, your own statement reveals that "murder" cannot be identified in a similar binary way. Are you claiming that every act that results in a person dying either IS murder or ISN'T, with no gray areas whatsoever? Would you say that the truth of whether an act IS or ISN'T murder somehow exists independently of whether a single human in the universe feels sure about it one way or another?

Suppose I kill someone who's completely brain-dead but the body is being kept alive on life support. Do you think there's some eternal absolute truth about whether this particular act is "really" murder or not?

And of course, the same ambiguity exists about the term "God", so I think it's also nonsense to say you can have absolute certainty about God's existence like you do about 1+1=2. For example, you didn't answer my question about whether your certainty that God exists could allow for the possibility that "God" is non-personal, like "the Tao" is often thought of being.

yguy

It reveals no such thing; it merely acknowledges that it is not always revealed in such fashion, due to our perceptual limitations with regard to the perp's motivation.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes. I don't know what that truth is right at the moment, but it exists. It would depend on why you did it; but even if it's wrong, it's not necessarily murder.

I'm sure He is personal, since we are created in His image.

Kimpatsu

In his image? So does god look like you, Tom Cruise, or Noel Coward?

Lobstrosity

Another self-evident concept?

Tenspace

Mind if I jump in? I'm the new guy here, but hopefully I can add something worthwhile. Don't welp me too hard if I fail.

yguy knows that god exists. Says it's the god of Abraham, etc. How did he learn this? Was it instinctive, encoded deep in his genes? Don't think so. He learned, like every other christian, from the Bible.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you will), but the holy bible of the judeo-christian faith is the *only* resource for information regarding this god of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Farber, PC.

And billions believe it to be true. But none of them can accept that it is horribly, hideously wrong, not to mention out-of-date like two-tone platform heels under a seafoam green leisure suit.

Problem is, it's like the day you learned that Santa wasn't real, only this time you're messing with your life, not just a few paltry presents. Most people can't handle the thought of the lack of god's and jc's being there, holding their hands and carrying them through their days, forgiving them for their stupidity and animosity toward others, especially those ::gasp:: different from themselves.

As for the rest of us, we laugh at your ignorance, cry at the pain you inflict on others, and wince every time we're told that we have to believe in something, and that not believing in anything is still believing.

Getting back to the original subject, something about quantum mechanics proving the existence of a god.... maybe the wave function is the god? I mean, think of a probability amplitude based on whether you're going to get pulled over by a cop today. If you're driving along, and your buddy looks over and says, "Hey, we haven't seen a cop at all today." do you suddenly cringe, just knowing that you've been cursed, and there's a patrol car in your very near future? That would go farther with me than simply saying that this collection of really old short stores is true, and enjoy everlasting torture if you don't believe us.

With respect,

Tenspace

Jesse

yguy:
I'm sure He is personal, since we are created in His image.

But are you sure of that in the same way you're sure that 1+1=2? I thought that although you were absolutely sure God exists, it was only your belief that it was the God of the Bible rather than, say, the Hindu God. Not all belief systems that include God presuppose that we were "created in His image".

By the way, are you a creationist? If not, what do you mean by "created in His image", exactly? And if so, are you absolutely sure that the theory of evolution by random mutation and natural selection is incorrect, or just relatively sure?