Freethought & Rationalism Archive

LLaurieG · 12-18-2002, 11:23 AM

Quote:

(hinduwoman) Karma literally means action. It simply another way of saying "As you sow so shall you reap". It is applicable in this life. On the supernatural plane it affects your afterlife. After death, you will go to heaven to enjoy the fruits of your good actions and to hell to suffer for your bad actions. After serving your sentence you are reborn on earth, and your condition depends on your karma in your previous life.

(Laurie) Please clarify something. Does spending time in hell reduce your bad karma in any way? You say that a person will be reborn to a lower condition (as punishment) in their next life(s) for bad karma in a previous life anyway So what is the point of the punishment in hell? Is the time in hell just extra punishment?

Same question regards heaven. It sounds like good people enjoy double reward (time in heaven AND a higher reincarnation), while bad people suffer double punishment (time in hell AND a lower reincarnation).

Eudaimonist · 12-18-2002, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman:
Brahma looks after creation while Shiva's task is to destroy the world when it is worn out so that a new universe can be created. However from various legends depicting conflicts among the two, it appears that the sects worshipping the two gods used to clash in ancient times. Historically speaking Brahma appears to be the god of the elite Brahmins while Shiva had a mass following. Nowadays, Brahma is hardly worshipped anywhere, while Shiva is wildly popular. However the vaishnavs (a sect of Vishnu worshippers) insist that Vishnu is the supreme god, while Shaivites insist that Shiva is supreme.

I don't know much about Hinduism, but I find the idea of worshipping a god (Shiva) that will destroy the world one day a little unsettling. Would you (or someone else) explain what would make Shiva so popular? And why would one of these gods be regarded as supreme when they all seem necessary to Existence in one way or another?

12-18-2002, 07:11 PM

"I don't know much about Hinduism, but I find the idea of worshipping a god (Shiva) that will destroy the world one day a little unsettling. Would you (or someone else) explain what would make Shiva so popular? And why would one of these gods be regarded as supreme when they all seem necessary to Existence in one way or another? "

My reply : Well, death is necessary in order to have life anew, no? If the world is overflow with all kind of things till chokes mental and spiritual developments, then the world have to be cleanse once more in order to start new.

Only certain groups consider a diety is supreme than another, maybe because they wants to catch more influences that way.

Eclectic eye · 12-18-2002, 11:55 PM

Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu are neither gods nor separate.

Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu correspond respectively to the destructive, creative and conservative ASPECTS of Nature. These three aspects are inseparable elements in the framework of this universe and one cannot exist without the others.

Consider an oak tree.

Germination destroys the acorn, creates the tree and preserves the species.

A craftsman destroys the tree, creates the table and preserves the wood.

roshan · 12-19-2002, 12:58 AM

Quote:

I don't know much about Hinduism, but I find the idea of worshipping a god (Shiva) that will destroy the world one day a little unsettling. Would you (or someone else) explain what would make Shiva so popular? And why would one of these gods be regarded as supreme when they all seem necessary to Existence in one way or another?

hinduism has both philosophical and mythological sides. shiva being a destroyer is just according to popular mythology(however, this mythology has a deeper symbolism). in order to understand hinduism, you need to study the differrent philosohies, such as advaita, saiva siddhanta, visishtadvaita, dvaita etc.

heres how saivite hindus actually view shiva(according to philosophy not mythology):

"The Supreme Reality is called Siva. He is infinite consciousness. He is eternal, changeless, formless, independent, omnipresent, omniscient, one without a second, beginningless, causeless, taintless, self-existent, ever-free, ever-pure and perfect. He is not limited by time. He is infinite bliss and infinite intelligence. He is free from defects, the all-doer and the all-knower.

Lord Siva is the God of love. His grace is infinite. His love is infinite. He is the saviour and Guru. He is engaged in freeing the souls from the thraldom of matter. He assumes the form of a Guru out of His intense love for mankind. He wishes that all should know Him and attain the blissful Siva-Pada. He watches the activities of the individual souls and helps them in their onward march. He liberates the individual souls from their fetters or bonds."

<a href="http://www.hinduism.co.za/philosop.htm#Saiva%20Siddhanta%20Philosophy%20and% 20Saktaism" target="_blank">http://www.hinduism.co.za/philosop.htm#Saiva%20Siddhanta%20Philosophy%20and% 20Saktaism</a>

[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: roshan ]

roshan · 12-19-2002, 01:16 AM

regarding why hindus choose one god over another:

most hindus believe that there is 1 ultimate reality. the diff philosophies have diff opinions on what this ultimate reality is like. some believe it has form, others that it is formless. some believe that the soul is part of this reality, others that they are seperate, others that they are the same. some believe that this reality can perform actions and has feelings, others believe that it does not perform actions or have feelings. etc etc etc etc etc. so there is a really huge diff of opinion about what this reality is like in the diff sects.

therefore each sect has its own way of viewing and depicting this reality. so some teach that you can worship it in any form of god that you like, others in only a specific form like vishnu or shiva, others in a certain group of forms, and there are even some sects who believe that images and idols should not be used.

[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: roshan ]

Answerer · 12-19-2002, 02:33 AM

Shiva is the manifestation of destruction, not the manifestation of evil. In some hindi tradition, Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma are treated as the three supreme Gods. Whereas, in other hindi traditions, they are combined to 'form' a supreme God known as Krishan, in which, the ulimate goal of each beings is to be God's purest servant.

Eudaimonist · 12-19-2002, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Answerer:
Shiva is the manifestation of destruction, not the manifestation of evil.

Yes, I was clear on that point. Still, it seems odd that the emphasis would be placed on the god that is responsible for destruction. It seems to elevate the negative above the positive (even if that negative may open the way for more positives). I would have guessed that there would be a greater appeal for the gods of creation and preservation, simply given the positive connotations of such. (Could it be that Shiva's appeal is that Shiva destroys the old and corrupt to make way for the new and good?)

I see from roshan's "philosophical" description of Shiva that the destruction element is either missing or considered irrelevant. I have to say that I'm just as mystified as I was before on this issue.

[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]

Answerer · 12-19-2002, 05:45 PM

Well, the power of destruction is just a tool, all of us can wield for positive means if we want.

Actually, according to my hindi friend, Vishnu is the favorite among the Three, not Shiva.

[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Answerer ]

roshan · 12-20-2002, 04:11 AM

answerer - each hindu has his own favourite god, it depends on the individual. shiva is one of the most commonly worshipped ones.

eudaimonist - for shiva worshipping hindus, shiva is both creator, presever and destroyer - not just a destroyer.

12-19-2002, 01:16 AM	#26
roshan Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: philippines Posts: 72	regarding why hindus choose one god over another: most hindus believe that there is 1 ultimate reality. the diff philosophies have diff opinions on what this ultimate reality is like. some believe it has form, others that it is formless. some believe that the soul is part of this reality, others that they are seperate, others that they are the same. some believe that this reality can perform actions and has feelings, others believe that it does not perform actions or have feelings. etc etc etc etc etc. so there is a really huge diff of opinion about what this reality is like in the diff sects. therefore each sect has its own way of viewing and depicting this reality. so some teach that you can worship it in any form of god that you like, others in only a specific form like vishnu or shiva, others in a certain group of forms, and there are even some sects who believe that images and idols should not be used. [ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: roshan ]</p>

12-19-2002, 05:45 PM	#29
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Well, the power of destruction is just a tool, all of us can wield for positive means if we want. Actually, according to my hindi friend, Vishnu is the favorite among the Three, not Shiva. [ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Answerer ]</p>

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12-18-2002, 07:11 PM	#23
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"I don't know much about Hinduism, but I find the idea of worshipping a god (Shiva) that will destroy the world one day a little unsettling. Would you (or someone else) explain what would make Shiva so popular? And why would one of these gods be regarded as supreme when they all seem necessary to Existence in one way or another? " My reply : Well, death is necessary in order to have life anew, no? If the world is overflow with all kind of things till chokes mental and spiritual developments, then the world have to be cleanse once more in order to start new. Only certain groups consider a diety is supreme than another, maybe because they wants to catch more influences that way.

12-18-2002, 11:55 PM	#24
Eclectic eye Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Deep center field Posts: 28	Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu are neither gods nor separate. Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu correspond respectively to the destructive, creative and conservative ASPECTS of Nature. These three aspects are inseparable elements in the framework of this universe and one cannot exist without the others. Consider an oak tree. Germination destroys the acorn, creates the tree and preserves the species. A craftsman destroys the tree, creates the table and preserves the wood.

12-19-2002, 02:33 AM	#27
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Shiva is the manifestation of destruction, not the manifestation of evil. In some hindi tradition, Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma are treated as the three supreme Gods. Whereas, in other hindi traditions, they are combined to 'form' a supreme God known as Krishan, in which, the ulimate goal of each beings is to be God's purest servant.

12-20-2002, 04:11 AM	#30
roshan Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: philippines Posts: 72	answerer - each hindu has his own favourite god, it depends on the individual. shiva is one of the most commonly worshipped ones. eudaimonist - for shiva worshipping hindus, shiva is both creator, presever and destroyer - not just a destroyer.

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