Amos

Faith does not imply reason nor does it require reason to have faith so it is rather irrational to say that faith is irrational.

Radorth

How about other subjects? For example if a skeptic is taken to task here for questioning the skeptics "evidence" of colusion, copying, redacting re the NT, is he still a free-thinker?

Was H.G. Wells, who wrote an outstanding exegis of Jesus' mission, and who never questioned his existence, a free thinker?

Is the agnostic humanist Will Durant, who questions Paul's motives, but not the basic veracity of the Gospels, a free-thinker? If he praises the works of certain medieval Catholics and denounces the works of others in the same breath, is he a free-thinker?

Does one automatically stop being a free-thinker after conversion? M. Scott Peck for example?

Rad

Eudaimonist

That's illogical, even for you, Amos.

Faith does not have to explicitly deny reason to be irrational. It need merely fail to depend on reason, and you say as much above.

Starboy

Radorth, you are hilarious! You will do everything but admit it. And again with the strawman arguments. To require "faith" to hold belief is to abdicate reason. That would make you irrational when it comes to your faith. I do not know you, and have no idea if you apply your "faith" to everything. If you did that would make you completely wacky as opposed to selectively wacky. It amazes me how seemly intelligent people can't see the tricks they play on themselves. It would be refreshing if there were more theists that could admit the irrationality of their "faith".

Starboy

Luiseach

It's hard to be a free thinker, especially in a world where we are constantly bombarded with overt or subtle attempts to influence us to think one way or another.

I see faith as a surrender of the effort to be a free thinker. From my point of view, to 'have faith' in anything at all is to admit failure in using and developing our capacity for reason.

Faith derives from laziness/complacency/fear/obstinacy/narrow-mindedness

Reason is born of courage/strength/flexibility/maturity/open-mindedness

Gemma Therese

I'd like to hear you say that in the presence of a Christian martyr -- just before their torture and death.

Gemma Therese

schu

Bring one on Gemma. You produce one and I will tell him.

Amos

But, if faith does not depend on reason it cannot be rational nor irrational because for something to be either rational or irrational the faculty of reason is used. When reason has not been part of our faith it is non-rational. This kind of faith is abundant in Catholicism where we are born into the faith and do the things we do because everybody else does and we are just following the leader (the "shepherd -sheep image" speak for this).

Apart from this (eg. outside of Catholicsism or Judaism) there exists an "age of accountibility" and this is where faith can become irrational, I happily agree. Of course, this can exist in Catholicism too, but, "the blind following the blind" speaks of non-rational faith and it is irrational to call such faith irrational.

Bree

There aren't any Christian martyrs anymore. Only Christians that get killed for doing stupid things or breaking the laws of the country they're in. One or the other - and to me, this is not martyrdom.

Starboy

Bree, using that criteria, have there ever been any martyrs?