Buddrow_Wilson

That same argument is used against abortion. Its an emotional response. It doesn't address the debate.

dk

Originally posted by dk:
...history tells another story, since birth control and abortion became available children have become increasingly unwanted, parents increasingly inept, public schools increasingly incompetent, and dysfunctional, broken, amputated and malformed families increasingly normal. The explosion of children controlled by happy pills, detention centers, drug rehab facilities, adult jails, foster homes and child services staggers the mind. I think its time people wake up...
Posted by LostGirl:
Are these effects always positively correlated with abortion and BC? Really? Why? And as I recall from first year psychology (since it was drummed into my head over, and over, and over)correlation does not equal causation.
dk: I’m sure the NEA and the educracy would hold Dixicrats, Nixon and Reagan accountable.
From 1965 to 1975 society’s fundamental social institutions changed at a pace so tumultuous it is impossible to distinguish cause from affect. In 1968 Bobby Kennedy & Martin Luther King were assassinated and the Democratic Convention in Chicago was literally sieged by Vietnam trippin protesters from around the nation. When Moynihan published his report sociologists, psychiatrists, academic elites and opinion accused Moynihan of being a racist then wrote it off as more “blame the victim” rhetoric. I think its fair to say the standards that ordered society in 1962 (the year FDA approval of the pill) were rewritten by 1972 (the year Roe v. Wade became law). Any academic, politician or opinion maker that dared raise a critical objection was tarred and feathered a racist, that much is clear. The pill made the sexual revolution possible, and I believe that’s where an objective analysis begins.
Posted by LostGirl:
Just because these two sets of social behaviour have increased in tandem does not mean that one caused the other. Often there is a third cause, or a series of unrelated causes that have resulted in both trends, especially when the cause and effect issues are complicated, as they are here. I don't think you can blame inept parents on birth control and abortion. There have always been inept parents; and their ability to parent has little to do with whether or not they can figure out the instructions on the condom packet or birth control insert. Rather, the ability to do so is probably the same reason they will or will not be an inept parent. Two effects, same cause. It's not the abortion/BC that caused the ineptness; rather, it allows for the ineptness to be expressed in a new way. I think one has to look at society as a whole and see why both sets of social behaviour increase and what is driving that.
dk: I didn’t say birth control pills or abortion would make “every child a wanted child”, that was Margaret Sanger, sociologists and social activists. I’m pointing out that these people were by and large unreliable and incompetent, and the 1960s students that did their dope, skipped rope are now the educracy. That’s the crisis.

Posted by LostGirl:
You may be able to pin it on the sexual revolution as a whole, and say that abortion/BC facilitated the sexual revolution. However, I'd like to see some indication that there are no societies without ready access to either that show these kinds of effects. I think you can get there in a multitude of ways, and that maybe BC/abortion are a symptom of the disease, and not the disease themself. This would mean that it might be possible to remove the underlying cause without having to remove the access to BC/abortion. I'd rather live in a society where we tried to improve ourselves, rather than one where we throw our hands up and say we can't, so we should deny ourselves things that we won't take responsibility for using . . . well, responsibly.
Basically, I'd rather teach my children and my peers that it's better to resist taking the cookies out of the jar except when appropriate than remove the cookies and the jar altogether.
dk: All the kings men and all the kings horses can’t put humpty dumpty back together again. I agree nobody can turn back the hands of time.

Psychic

I am really impressed with you new abilities now you know the colors and stuff! But one last remark use the QUOTE and /QUOTE functions to accentuate the Quotes from other people.

I am totally unable to understand what is the association between “the pills” and the children becoming increasingly unwanted … etc. are you saying that the Oral Contraceptive Pills have ruined societies? OCP is a tragedy! I don’t see how. I hope you don’t mind explaining. I still don’t understand the connection between abortion/BC and the ill-effects on societies! And what similar ill effects the policy I am proposing would have.

that one is awesome, that’s the right analogy I’ve been looking for I just didn’t see it in the way he did.

And about the method of sterilization (my device!) I placed it in my primary assumption because I know it very difficult to come up with a reversible and 100% guaranteed method of sterilization. but I don’t think we should be discussing the device, lets discuss the morals of the whole process instead.

I look forward to know what do you mean by the OCP leading to a tragedy?

Psychic

[QUOTE]posted by I_C_THE_LITE
Wow, your statements, if I perceive them correctly, are utter none-sense, especially since their is quite a smattering of so-called statistical evidence.

go to this link

No offense was meant, and I hope no offense was taken. You know I am also the 6th child of my parents, but my existence doesn’t make birth control the wrong thing to do! Argument out of “are you denying me existence” is invalid, and is totally emotional.

Video games, and Pcs! Interesting! I think you should look a little deeper on the dark side of the world! Let me give you better examples of “why parents are not there for you”; Heroin addicts, dependent alcoholics, psychopaths, mental retards, irresponsible behavior, indifference, Homelessness, inability to secure the minimum amounts food…etc etc etc.

Do you think that a couple of homeless Heroin addicts who are most likely to be dead within few years of an “over dose” deserve to have a child? This IS what I call insanity! Freedom is responsibility, and if they can’t be responsible I don’t think they deserve to be free to do whatever they like.

I think it would be a much better world, if such kind of people are not allowed to have children. A child of this type has many options each one of them is a compromise. Live on the streets, or be raised by the state…etc even foster homes! There is a compromise. Life can be better than this.

Humans have reached breath-taking levels of civility and organization. I wonder when all this chaos involved in raising children will come to an end!

dk

Margaret Sanger was the founder of Planned Parenthood, and orchestrated the development, clinical trials, FDA approval, and universal access (in US) for the pill. Margaret Sanger marketed the pill to make “Every Child a wanted Child” and the world a better place for everyone. The pill was made available in 1962, and 40 years later we find there are more unwanted children. I say “more unwanted children” because so many more parents have abandoned their children to the State, and the state has institutionalized (put them in the system) so many more children. Raising children has become a big problem across Western Civilization, and a society that looses the capacity to raise healthy productive citizens will surely come to ruin.

Sterilization is just a more severe method to accomplish the objective Sanger sought with the pill, a safe means for women to control reproduction. Contraception backstopped with abortion clearly gives women the means, and have been available, in the US, for over 30 years. So the question we need to answer first is, “Why are there more unwanted children today, than pre 1960 when birth control and abortion were taboo.”

LostGirl

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, dk; I agree that Sanger's methods and conclusions were extremely flawed. I'm just still wondering about two assertions I think you're making. Could you clarify or explain the facts behind them?a) Are you asserting that access to BC/abortion leads (inevitably or not) to increased levels of state-supported children through neglect or abandonment? Again, what I'm wondering is why access to BC/abortion and an increased tendency towards poor parenting aren't both symptoms of the same disease - a wider malady that's causing numerous effects - ie; obesity (or pick your own "Sign of the Fall of Western Civilization"). I don't know what that wider effect might be, but I'm sure interested in finding out, because until it's addressed we may be able to stop some leaks in the dike, but eventually, we'll run out of thumbs.
b)Have there been studies showing that the proportion of children abandoned to the system has increased at a greater rate than that accounted for by population increase? Or demographic population increase? What about when compared historically to say, the poor of Victorian England?

Finally, I also wonder this: if we removed access to BC and abortion, why would the number of unwanted/unplanned-for/uncared-for children decrease? Again, if it's because you change social mores regarding sexuality, then I feel that's the underlying problem, not BC itself. Even if BC "caused" the sexual revolution in the first place.

dk

dk:
So the question we need to answer first is, “Why are there more unwanted children today, than pre 1960 when birth control and abortion were taboo.”

LostGirl:
a) Are you asserting that access to BC/abortion leads (inevitably or not) to increased levels of state-supported children through neglect or abandonment? Again, what I'm wondering is why access to BC/abortion and an increased tendency towards poor parenting aren't both symptoms of the same disease - a wider malady that's causing numerous effects - ie; obesity (or pick your own "Sign of the Fall of Western Civilization"). I don't know what that wider effect might be, but I'm sure interested in finding out, because until it's addressed we may be able to stop some leaks in the dike, but eventually, we'll run out of thumbs.
dk:
I think we as a society have been turned upside down and inside out to no avail in search of the perfect individual. I think we need to underscore the fact that the family unit has always been dysfunctional because it is composed of people with individual flaws. If we take one giant step backwards from bc/abort and refocus on the larger picture of family everyone should be able to agree that parents and children complement one another independent of race, creed, ethnicity and origins. The great failure of industrialization, technology, philosophy and education has been to promulgate a hostile attitude towards domestic work, to elevate productive work. The industrial world has supplanted the sanctity of the home with privacy rights, and in effect left people disengaged, disenfranchised and disaffected apart from their own narrow myopic perspective.

LostGirl:
b)Have there been studies showing that the proportion of children abandoned to the system has increased at a greater rate than that accounted for by population increase? Or demographic population increase? What about when compared historically to say, the poor of Victorian England?
dk:
That’s a difficult question. What history clearly shows is a mass emigration of families from Europe to the N. America as each European nation industrialized. Europe didn’t want to rid itself of professionals, industrialists, artesian, money people but the squalor and feeble aristocracy that assaulted human sensibilities with depraved living conditions and decadence left in the wake of the Industrial Revolution. The working poor of Europe were literally put under siege by governments to whom they had sworn allegiance and given good service. Some turned to communism for solace and redemption and others turned to fascism for safety and justification. Its important to note, nobody liked what was happening, and everyone struggled to rationalize their plight or decadence in the scheme of a greater context. The greater rational context came from the economic concepts expounded by Malthus, Mills, Ricardo, and Smith, then conjoined by the expansive works of Comte, Locke, Hume, Kant, Nietzsche, Berkeley, Hegel, Marx and Spencer. In my opinion Western Civilization still hasn’t come to grips with the vice of industrial intercourse, and instead of facing the innate problems squarely and honestly, buried it in a graveyard of vice with tools fashioned from verbal gymnastics, technology and science. We have simply forgotten that economics came from the Greek word household and in this sense unwanted children are side affects of a civilization that has supplanted 1) economic for material intercourse, 2) social for industrial intercourse, and 3) recreational for Marital intercourse. The transformation leaves most people leading meaningless lives estranged from their family by broken promises, covenants and commitments to painful to examine. But to answer the question, and sorry for the rant, the 20th Century was the first recorded century, so the great emigrations of the 19th Century on the heels of the industrial revolution went unrecorded.

LostGirl:
Finally, I also wonder this: if we removed access to BC and abortion, why would the number of unwanted/unplanned-for/uncared-for children decrease? Again, if it's because you change social mores regarding sexuality, then I feel that's the underlying problem, not BC itself. Even if BC "caused" the sexual revolution in the first place.
dk:
I agree, if we lived in a world that valued life, then children would be cherished and loved instead of abandoned and abused. bc/abort are side affects of deeper issues people find to painful to examine.

VonEvilstein

Whoever mentioned walking licenses was onto a good thing! Most pedestrians I have to share the pavement with have not got a bloody clue!

Psychic

So people, I think we have made a good conversation here. Now what I am going to do is to summarize all your arguements and modify the Policy in their light, to be able to exctract some useful ideas after our debate. I think I'll furthermore start a new "modified" thread on the final picture.
so what I want you to do to help is to summarize your arguements and modifications in two or three statements. and i'll try my best to do the rest of the work to see if we can come up with something useful.


dk I think we need to hear a step by step mechanism on how this policy would (If implemented) have such ill-effects on society similar to those you claim to be associated with BC/abortion.
thank you all.

LostGirl

dk thank you. That was a cogent, precise, and to the point answer that clarified the basis for your arguments for me.
We seem to be in agreement that BC and everything else is a symptom of the "misvaluing" that is so prevalent in our society.