Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Arken · 07-12-2003, 07:36 PM

I seem to remember reading that ancient Hebrew graffiti has been found in ancient Egyptian mine shafts. Does anyone have anything to corroborate that?

Vorkosigan · 07-12-2003, 08:33 PM

Esther --

I put up that paragraph to give a flavor of the discussion. If you read all the material, and search for Hawass on the net, you will soon find that an extensive array of materials is available on this issue, which shows that paid work gangs rather than slaves were used to build the pyramids, monuments the Israelites are apparently unaware of, although they spent 400 years in Egypt, and upon which travelers from many other cultures commented frequently.

As far as anyone knows, there were no Hebrew slaves in Egypt to build Pyramids or any other monuments. The story of Joseph is a fairy tale, though it may have traces of a foundation in the reality of starving desert tribes occasionally taking refuge in Egypt. The Five Books of Moses are a national epic that appears to be almost entirely invention, full of errors, contradictions, absurdities and impossibilities, with no support from archaeology.

Vorkosigan

Soul Invictus · 07-12-2003, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by marduck
It would have been impossible for Jews to have built the Pyramids. They were constructed 4600 years ago, long before Abraham would have been born (even by a Biblical timeline) They would have been Ante-diluvian, long before there were any Jews. I have never before heard anyone, even a Fundy, claim Jews built the pyramids. Even in the movie The 10 Commandments the Jewish slaves were building a city for Ramses, not the Pyramids.
I didn't think the Bible even mentions the Pyramids, they are in Cairo for one thing, the Hykso's settlements were further North.

I work with a Jewish woman and she made the statement that the Jews were building the pyramids

, so I wasn't sure if this was an operating idea within Jewish culture or within the Christian sect. Just making a note to address that issue.

Soul Invictus · 07-12-2003, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
Esther --

I put up that paragraph to give a flavor of the discussion. If you read all the material, and search for Hawass on the net, you will soon find that an extensive array of materials is available on this issue, which shows that paid work gangs rather than slaves were used to build the pyramids, monuments the Israelites are apparently unaware of, although they spent 400 years in Egypt, and upon which travelers from many other cultures commented frequently.

As far as anyone knows, there were no Hebrew slaves in Egypt to build Pyramids or any other monuments. The story of Joseph is a fairy tale, though it may have traces of a foundation in the reality of starving desert tribes occasionally taking refuge in Egypt. The Five Books of Moses are a national epic that appears to be almost entirely invention, full of errors, contradictions, absurdities and impossibilities, with no support from archaeology.

Vorkosigan

I had a question about that Joseph story. Is there any reference to "Joseph" being grand viziar to the pharoah? I think that's what the Bible says he would have been.

Soul Invictus · 07-12-2003, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EstherRose
Interesting, always was a big fan of Zahi Hawass.

My earlier post was based on Vorkosigan's post. His conclusions did not seem to tally with what he wrote. Now that I have some time, and am not being thrown in several different directions by the family's needs, I have questions of my own.

I'm still not sure what this has to do with slavery of the Jews and building projects.

It is believed by many bible scholars that the Hebrews were not enslaved at first but only later closer to the time of Moses probably after the Hyksos rulers were expelled.

Exodus 1:8 refers to a new king which did not know Joseph. At the end of the Second Intermediate period, the Hyksos were driven out of power and the 18th dynasty of the New Kingdom began around 1539 BCE. This is the time of slaves and slave labor. There was large scale building projects which went on and one pharoah had large amounts of troops guarding the frontier borders. This is long after the time of the pyramids in the Old Kingdom (Khufu is 2551-2528 BCE according to the accepted archaeological timeline). I don't believe the Jews built the pyramids, but they could easily have been used for the later building projects during the New Kingdom.

Do you have evidence for who built the public monuments during that time period?

Just so you know I didn't miss your question...I don't. Sorry. I believe someone provided some useful links before my reply though.

Sauron · 07-13-2003, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by livius drusus
EstherRose, the paucity of historical evidence for the Exodus has been the subject of several fascinating threads I think you might enjoy perusing. Some of my favorites include:

Why is there no record of an exodus in egyptian history, covers a wide range of theories.

Vanderzyden's argument from Brooklyn Papyrus, Hebrew slaves in Egypt, particularly Mfaber's scalpel of a post.

The Exodus......possible or not?, DavidH's cut of whole cloth theory utterly decimated by Mendeh.

I should warn you however, it is truly engrossing reading. You better lock the door and post a warning to keep those meddling family members of yours from interrupting.

Wow. Way to go, Mendeh.
:notworthy

Darwin's Beagle · 07-14-2003, 08:38 AM

Thank you very much. I now have sufficient material to formulate that part of my reply.

Sincerely,

Darwin's Beagle

Ray Marlin · 07-14-2003, 01:25 PM

The director of anitquities in Egypt, (I think that's his title) Dr. Zawi Hawass (not sure of the exact name) gets very irate when it's suggested slaves built the pyramids. Their excavations (which were just detailed on National Geographic last week or so) indicate the workers were not slaves.

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07-12-2003, 07:36 PM	#11
Arken Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 6,303	I seem to remember reading that ancient Hebrew graffiti has been found in ancient Egyptian mine shafts. Does anyone have anything to corroborate that?

07-12-2003, 08:33 PM	#12
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Esther -- I put up that paragraph to give a flavor of the discussion. If you read all the material, and search for Hawass on the net, you will soon find that an extensive array of materials is available on this issue, which shows that paid work gangs rather than slaves were used to build the pyramids, monuments the Israelites are apparently unaware of, although they spent 400 years in Egypt, and upon which travelers from many other cultures commented frequently. As far as anyone knows, there were no Hebrew slaves in Egypt to build Pyramids or any other monuments. The story of Joseph is a fairy tale, though it may have traces of a foundation in the reality of starving desert tribes occasionally taking refuge in Egypt. The Five Books of Moses are a national epic that appears to be almost entirely invention, full of errors, contradictions, absurdities and impossibilities, with no support from archaeology. Vorkosigan

07-14-2003, 08:38 AM	#17
Darwin's Beagle Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 62	Thank you very much. I now have sufficient material to formulate that part of my reply. Sincerely, Darwin's Beagle

07-14-2003, 01:25 PM	#18
Ray Marlin Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Third base Posts: 11	The director of anitquities in Egypt, (I think that's his title) Dr. Zawi Hawass (not sure of the exact name) gets very irate when it's suggested slaves built the pyramids. Their excavations (which were just detailed on National Geographic last week or so) indicate the workers were not slaves.

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