Freethought & Rationalism Archive

CX · 02-27-2002, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Haran:
Also, on the dating of the book of John, the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310519403/qid=1014776337/sr=2-3/ref=sr_2_3/103-8346869-8031000" target="_blank">Intro. to the NT by Carson, Moo, and Morris</a> gives a "tentative" date of A.D. 80-85. One good reason for this date is that if the "Johannine Epistles are concerned in part to combat an incipient form of Gnosticism, predicated in part on a Gnostic misunderstanding of the fourth gospel, then some time must be allowed between the publication of the gospel and the publication of the epistles of John. That tends to rule out a date in the nineties." (p.168)

This intro is written by relatively conservative scholars, but they are excellent scholars with good arguments. Their book presents liberal views as well and contains an awesome bibliography of current scholarly works on the issue.

P.S. - I hate when the page changes with my post. Don't miss my last post with the pictures... I worked hard on that!

Haran

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Haran ]

The main problem I have with this is the assumption that, the Johannine Epistles are concerned in part to combat an incipient form of Gnosticism, predicated in part on a Gnostic misunderstanding of the fourth gospel

I submit that the direction of dependence is just the opposite and Udo Schnelle, who is pretty middle of the road being neither overly conservative nor overly liberal, agrees writing on p 439 of his intro,

Quote:

"The order of Johannine writings here presupposed (2 John, 3 John, 1 John, Gospel of John) is based on considerations that were current in the nineteenth and first half of the twentieth centuries. Four Main arguments may be brought forward for this order (for which Schnelle provides detailed evidence in the section following this one):

(1) The two brief Johannine letters are not insignificant products of the late phase of the Johannine school, but as writings of the PRESBUTEROS IWANNHS are original documents from its beginning period.
(2)Since 3 John 9 refers to 2 John, 2 John stands at the beginning of the Johannine literature.
(3)1 John refers to no recognizable passage in the Gospel of John. It is engaged in polemical debate with docetic false teachers, that come into view for the first time in 2 John 7.
(4)The Gospel of John presupposes the current controversy with the docetic false teachers, and comprehensively works through the subject of theological conflict associated with them."

I won't present Schnelle's entire argument here and leave it to the reader to research it further in the the section of his book, History and Theology of the New Testament Writings, on "The Writings of the Johannine School" (pp. 434-516). His hypotheses, based on my survey of the literature including his own extensive citations of monographs and other literature, seem roughly inline with contemporary mainstream scholarship on the issue.

CX · 02-27-2002, 06:50 AM

Another concern I have about the text you cite is that it's authors and readership are self-described as "conservative/evangelical". Now naturally this needn't reflect on the quality of their scholarship, but the combination of a relatively obvious theological bias coupled with conclusions that don't jibe with the the majority of mainstream scholars gives me pause. Still, I'll have to pick up their text and look at their full arguments. Needless to say I did not find the arguments in Luke Timothy Johnson's intro text terribly compelling and I thought his evangelical bias was quite apparent (I simply cannot accept that the pastoral epistles are genuine), though he did present some very good arguments which I agreed with in some cases.

Blue_Metal · 02-27-2002, 08:45 AM

Wheeee!!! It made it to two pages! Thanks for all the input. The same idiot spent the intire period asking me to sing Jesus Loves Me.

I'm tempted to just burst into Seek Ye First just so I can laugh at him.

This other idiot, who apparently missed the entire original argument, which dissolved into a shouting match, wants me to have 'Christian Morals'.

Blue

CX · 02-27-2002, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blue_Metal:
Wheeee!!! It made it to two pages! Thanks for all the input. The same idiot spent the intire period asking me to sing Jesus Loves Me.

I'm tempted to just burst into Seek Ye First just so I can laugh at him.

This other idiot, who apparently missed the entire original argument, which dissolved into a shouting match, wants me to have 'Christian Morals'.

Blue

Sorry Haran & I kind of hijacked your thread with our tangent about Dating GJn. "Christian Morals" indeed. There is an outstanding essay by Richard Carrier here at II on <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/carrier2.html" target="_blank">Solon the Athenian</a>, the real founder of Western Morality. Print it out and give it to your "friend" (read it yourself first of course).

CX · 02-27-2002, 10:13 AM

A few other notes.

Evangelical pollsters the Barna Group, who poll people see the relative attitudes of believers and unbelievers alike offers some very illuminating statistics

Atheists are less likely than evangelicals and other Xians to get divorced.

Atheists are not represented in prison populations proportionally.

Atheists are more likely to be college educated.

Unbelievers are less likely to commit violent crimes.

Xians do not by any stretch of the imagination corner the market on morals or moral behavior. A Xian is just as likely to be immoral as any other person. I have no references so you have to look up the Barna Group yourself to get recent relavant statistics.

NOGO · 03-02-2002, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Atheists are not represented in prison populations proportionally.

Atheists are more likely to be college educated.

These two are probably related and therefore you can possibly eliminate the word atheists from the equation.

ie - Better educated people are less likely to end up in prison.

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

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02-27-2002, 06:50 AM	#32
CX Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Portlandish Posts: 2,829	Another concern I have about the text you cite is that it's authors and readership are self-described as "conservative/evangelical". Now naturally this needn't reflect on the quality of their scholarship, but the combination of a relatively obvious theological bias coupled with conclusions that don't jibe with the the majority of mainstream scholars gives me pause. Still, I'll have to pick up their text and look at their full arguments. Needless to say I did not find the arguments in Luke Timothy Johnson's intro text terribly compelling and I thought his evangelical bias was quite apparent (I simply cannot accept that the pastoral epistles are genuine), though he did present some very good arguments which I agreed with in some cases.

02-27-2002, 08:45 AM	#33
Blue_Metal Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NA Posts: 130	Wheeee!!! It made it to two pages! Thanks for all the input. The same idiot spent the intire period asking me to sing Jesus Loves Me. I'm tempted to just burst into Seek Ye First just so I can laugh at him. This other idiot, who apparently missed the entire original argument, which dissolved into a shouting match, wants me to have 'Christian Morals'. Blue

02-27-2002, 10:13 AM	#35
CX Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Portlandish Posts: 2,829	A few other notes. Evangelical pollsters the Barna Group, who poll people see the relative attitudes of believers and unbelievers alike offers some very illuminating statistics Atheists are less likely than evangelicals and other Xians to get divorced. Atheists are not represented in prison populations proportionally. Atheists are more likely to be college educated. Unbelievers are less likely to commit violent crimes. Xians do not by any stretch of the imagination corner the market on morals or moral behavior. A Xian is just as likely to be immoral as any other person. I have no references so you have to look up the Barna Group yourself to get recent relavant statistics.

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