Freethought & Rationalism Archive

daemon · 07-16-2002, 03:35 PM

Just to chime in with my personal experience--though it certainly won't qualify as much more than anecdote, really--but the only unifying element among the atheists I've ever known is that they were intelligent. Most were decidedly not affluent, but most were white, though that's not unexpected really, seeing as whites do make up the majority of people I've ever known, period.

bonduca · 07-16-2002, 03:36 PM

I dunno, I'm more a sort of ecru.

daemon · 07-16-2002, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
<strong>You would be what is known as an exception. As a general rule, people who live under dire economic and social circumstances tend are much more reticent to abandon hope in favor of logic than their more affluent counterparts.</strong>

*blink* What? Since when have I given up hope?

bonduca · 07-16-2002, 03:40 PM

If you mean me, luvluv, I only found hope once I abandoned that fantasy.

daemon · 07-16-2002, 03:41 PM

I assumed he was referring to all atheists.

tronvillain · 07-16-2002, 03:42 PM

luvluv:

Quote:

By the way, I didn't say anything about any specific religion, I was talking about hope. There is no hope in atheism, but there is some in Christianity. Hope is not true, it is not factual, it is not based in anything verifiable or logical. It is simply a belief about the nature of the future; specifically, that it will be good. Hope is an irrational belief, but it is necessary.

Hope is not a belief, irrational or otherwise. It is optimism based upon the belief that something better is possible - though the odds may be a hundred to one against, one may have hope that the one may come up. While Christinaity offers more hope than atheist, what additional hope it offers is false.

Quote:

Also, the people who were the most religious did quite all right in leading movements against the conditions of their poverty and degradation in this country. In fact, the religious (and specifically the Christians) were the main people leading the charge.

Of course, the religious (and specifically the Christians) were the main people opposing the charge.

DRFseven · 07-16-2002, 03:44 PM

Luvluv, some day you are going to have to face the fact that we don't get to choose whether we believe something or not. We MUST run it through our bullshit detectors and find out whether or not we believe it is true. So it doesn't matter what atheism does or doesn't do to peoples' lives, just as it doesn't matter what religion does. If you were beaten and persecuted for your beliefs and lost all your friends, do you think you would be able to decide NOT to believe? Of course not; not unless something in your experience changed your mind! You've backed out on this before; please don't do it again.

Quote:

luvluv: There is no hope in atheism...

Baloney, luvluv! There is plenty of hope in MY atheism. Hope that I will see the demise of religious thinking in my lifetime. Of course I hope for lots of other things as well.

luvluv · 07-16-2002, 03:45 PM

To whatever extent you have hope, you are being illogical, no? What is the logical basis for hope? And if logic does not convince you to abandon hope, why would it convince you to abandon God? What makes hope a more believable assertion than God?

DRFseven · 07-16-2002, 03:47 PM

Quote:

luv: What is the logical basis for hope?

Experience! Experience illustrates that we often get what we hope for.

luvluv · 07-16-2002, 03:48 PM

DRF, that's exactly my point. What I am saying is that there are other determinants than logic. People in dire straights believe because it makes their lives easier: they will reject pure logic because it offers nothing for them that they can use. People can refuse to believe things despite strong evidence for it. Even if their belief is a psychological phenomenon of repression, it makes little difference.

Again, I ask, what is the logical basis for hope?

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07-16-2002, 03:35 PM	#51
daemon Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 737	Just to chime in with my personal experience--though it certainly won't qualify as much more than anecdote, really--but the only unifying element among the atheists I've ever known is that they were intelligent. Most were decidedly not affluent, but most were white, though that's not unexpected really, seeing as whites do make up the majority of people I've ever known, period.

07-16-2002, 03:36 PM	#52
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	I dunno, I'm more a sort of ecru.

07-16-2002, 03:40 PM	#54
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	If you mean me, luvluv, I only found hope once I abandoned that fantasy.

07-16-2002, 03:41 PM	#55
daemon Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 737	I assumed he was referring to all atheists.

07-16-2002, 03:45 PM	#58
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	To whatever extent you have hope, you are being illogical, no? What is the logical basis for hope? And if logic does not convince you to abandon hope, why would it convince you to abandon God? What makes hope a more believable assertion than God?

07-16-2002, 03:48 PM	#60
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	DRF, that's exactly my point. What I am saying is that there are other determinants than logic. People in dire straights believe because it makes their lives easier: they will reject pure logic because it offers nothing for them that they can use. People can refuse to believe things despite strong evidence for it. Even if their belief is a psychological phenomenon of repression, it makes little difference. Again, I ask, what is the logical basis for hope?

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