Magus55

Lol, then they aren't Christian. Talk about your oxymorons. Its one thing to have differing views on the entire Bible being literal, but seeing no value in the Bible whatsoever ( in other words, Denying everything in reguard to what Jesus taught) makes you 100% non Christian by its true definition. These days, alot of people just call themselves Christian for societal reasons and nothing else. Kinda like race or gender. I'm a caucasian, male Christian. Hence, where we get the term "True Christian". Denying the Bible isn't one.

Biff the unclean

I've never met anyone who wasn't a "True" Christian. No matter what they believed about the bible or Jesus they have always told me that they were the true Christians. It's those other guys who are false Christians.
And yet when you talk to the other guys you find that they say that they are the actual "true" Christians and not the first group at all.

JLennon

That is exactly true Biff. In my speaking of christians in general I have to group them together despite exceptions to the rule. For instance, the bible is very clear about praying in private--but how many sects actually practice that? I think only the amish do--a very exceptional group. The bible is very clear about not using symbolisms such as the fish logo--yet only Jehovas would rip such a thing off their car if they saw it and speak against the inscription "In God we Trust" on our currency. And how many christians have you heard say "cleanliness is next to godliness?" But Jesus was clearly against the cleaniliness laws of the jews and saidd that people only wash pots and pans out of tradition (habit). Most christians try to go one better than Jesus by using grape juice for communion. In all my life I have never met a ""true" christian--yet they all claim to be true christians while going against the bible just as much as atheist without becoming an atheist. And, yes, I am saying atheist are just as hypocritical as christians are generally speaking. Atheism tends to be liberal Christians--witness Marxism. And if you don't think they way that they think--then you should be shot. Or the will go the other extreme and say all religions have something to gain by them--thy just aren't factual. So, the atheist think in a highbrow fashion of themselves believing they have truths greater than any christian has--and I personally have NEVER met an atheist that had any such wisdom at all. When it comes to the wisdom department atheist are definitely behind most christians.

philechat

Dear JLennon,

May you just stop the gross generalization of both the Christians and the atheists? What are you trying to achieve here by first dividing them into two "utterly different" group, and then calling them "the same" in the department of hypocrisy? What are you trying to achieve here by calling atheists "inferior in wisdom" (whatever you meant) to the Christians?

Ernest Sparks

A christian and an atheist can agree that each thinks the other is dead wrong.

A christian and an atheist can agree that the answer is "Jesus".
(what they can't agree on is what the question is. One thinks it is "Who is it that totally succeeds in making sense of the overall scheme of life?"; the other one thinks it is "Who is it that totally fails to make sense of the overall scheme of life?")

ex-xian

I'm afraid that you're conclusion doesn't follow at all. It's perfectly reasonable to believe that two groups can hold entirely mutually exclusive beliefs (however, all xian and atheist beliefs are not mutually exclusive as has been pointed out), and one of them be entirely correct.

First of all, I'm not a xian. But you are terribly misrepresenting what the bible teaches and what most xians believe. The exhortation to pray in private was not total. Jesus prayed in public and taught his disciples to do so; the point was not to be haughty in attitude. I'm assuming that the bit about logos and such is from the OT? The command against engraved images was not to make them for the purposes of worship. Jesus also was not against washing; only against the extreme that the pharisees had taken the ritual cleansing.

Have you ever actually read the Communist Manifesto? If not, then don't talk to me about Marxism b/c you don't understand it. You only understand the tragedy that the USSR became.

Also, does anyone have a link to the "No True Scotsman fallacy? JLennon is committing it in spades.

shifterknob

Any why.. why did you not stop Paul for selling the entire Beatles catalogue to that walking horror Michael Jackson. An apparition or two would have sufficed...

GeoTheo

I hope nobody here on these forums has as their goal to reconcile atheism and Christianity and to find common ground between the two. There is no common ground. We are talking about being and nothingness. Light and darkness.
God is everything to a Christian. Christians are to think of themselves as clay vessels whose only honor is that they contain the spirit of God. We reckon ouselves dead so that we can live unto Christ. God is the animating force in our lives.
To an atheist God is nothing. There is no greater contrast in the Universe than everything, the ground of being, the sustainer of the Universe, and nothing. Everything and nothing does not have common ground.
Also, to an atheist Christianity is worse than nothing. It is a fraud. Actually because of the scale of the subject here, the biggest fraud that has ever been perpetuated upon mankind.
Not much common ground there either. On the one hand you have what is believed to be the meaning of existence and on the other hand what is believed to be the largest fraud in history.
Also Christians believe that "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"
So basically that would leave atheists with absolutely no wisdom as far as Christians are concerned. Atheists have absolutely no insight into the most important issues of life, If we are to believe the Bible.

ex-xian

You mean wisdom like stoning rebelious children, having slaves, rejoicing over babies' heads being crushed onto rocks, and not eating meat with blood in it (only well-done steak....this is new testament btw). Is that the kind of wisdom you're talking about? Because I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

GeoTheo

Without getting into a big time wasting interpretation debate with a person that is not even making an attempt to interpret the text properly, I would rather look at the broader picture:
And that is, If you are wrong about the most important thing in life, the existence of God, than your wisdom asmuth is off by 180 degrees. You are going the wrong way from the starting point.