Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tabula_rasa · 04-01-2003, 08:50 AM

The comparison between "eternal afterlife" vs. "eternal reincarnation" vs. "one life that's it" is an interesting discussion in its own merit. In particular, I believe the latter.

Aside from the historical fact that crucifixions took place ca. 2000 years ago, we have little to no evidence that the mythical Jesus figure was crucified much less resurrected. Even if such evidence were presented, there remains the problem of the whole resurrection story itself. Issues have been raised and none of these have really been addressed.

1) Does YWH still require blood sacrifices to appease his displeasure with his own "creation?"
2) Were the Romans acting of their own free will or was it predestined by YWH's plan?
3) If Jesus was YWH and YWH is still "alive" what was the real sacrifice anyway?

There were other questions as well. No real responses that go beyond the "we know it happened the way it's depicted in the NT."

Tabula_rasa

Tabula_rasa · 04-01-2003, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Mageth:
... An afterlife would be nice; I'm no fool. ...

An afterlife would be nice (to me) only if it were similar to the life we currently have. Just remembered the old ditty: "In heaven there ain't no beer, that's why we drink it here."

Tabula_rasa

Mageth · 04-01-2003, 11:38 AM

An afterlife would be nice (to me) only if it were similar to the life we currently have.

You are correct. At least similar, better in some ways would be better. I'll modify my statement to say "A pleasant afterlife would be nice".

jmborr · 04-01-2003, 12:48 PM

there are countless such unperceivable things from which one can choose one's beliefs. How to differentiate among them?
I compared other religions I have read to christianity, and they scored low. I haven't seem them all, nor deep enough each one, it's true, but I made up my mind. Thus I can't judge other people's beliefs on my own merits. According to John's gospel, it is Jesus who judges.

the bible uses a similar tactic, something about birds in the field not worrying about tomorrow...
Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Mat 6:26
Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds!
Wow, what a fine manipulation you did ! In this verse Jesus speaks that birds do not worry about FOOD, thus you should not worry about FOOD. Sure you know where to find in the gospels the verses where Jesus prompts you to worry about the "kingdom of God". Maybe animals have the ability to decide whether they should worry or not
about food, and act on that decision. But this is miles away to the ability to worry about "who am I?".

"luck" is another concept I lack belief in.
OK, what about this: may the random motion of the atoms favor you.

jmborr · 04-01-2003, 01:02 PM

Now you're just being evasive. He asked you the question to demonstrate how analogous your claims were to a similar situation. Your refusal to asnwer merely emphasizes the extent of your cognitive dissonance.
I was evasive because it's hard to reply everyone, and I chose to reply other things I know more about.
So now I am doomed to read about Hinduism

. Well, I would challenge any atheist to read also about Hinduism, and then we can talk. I don't see why we christians have to be experts in every other religion while you sit down in the sofa watching TV.
Any good books on the subject ?

Mageth · 04-01-2003, 01:14 PM

I compared other religions I have read to christianity, and they scored low. I haven't seem them all, nor deep enough each one, it's true, but I made up my mind.

That doesn't tell me much. How did you "score" them? What leads you to believe your scoring system is "the one" to discriminate among religions to find the "correct" one?

Wow, what a fine manipulation you did !

I wasn't manipulating Jesus' comments (I didn't even have them in mind when I made my kitty comments), and I wasn't directly comparing my comments to Jesus'. I merely said Jesus used a similar method, using animals to make a point about human existence.

Maybe animals have the ability to decide whether they should worry or not about food, and act on that decision. But this is miles away to the ability to worry about "who am I?".

So you don't think a cat knows it's a "cat", however it forms the concept in its own little kitty thoughts? They sure know that another cat is a cat, and a dog, scratching post or stuffed animal are not cats, so they appear able to distinguish cat from not-cat.

The answer to "who am I?" for a cat would be I'm a cat, nothing else. The answer to "who am I" for a human should be "I'm a human, nothing else."

The point I'm making is, no matter what the "awareness" level of a cat is, it lives its life as a cat, and, whether through lack of ability to think such philosophical thoughts or some innate "wisdom" we cannot grasp, does not strive to be something it is not. Like the cat, I don't strive to be something I'm not. I'm a human animal, like the cat is a cat animal. Thus, one should heed the wisdom of the cat, do as the cat does and accept your animaldom. Striving for a life beyond this animal life we have, striving to be something that transcends the human animal, is a hopeless fantasy, a bit of foolishness we've cooked up in our human "wisdom."

Amaranth · 04-01-2003, 01:16 PM

Quote:

jmborr wrote:
Christianity at the core is about humility. And it is harder to be humble than to boast you found salvation by your own merits.

Interesting. Buddhism and Taoism, at the least, are very specific about being humble. The Islamic tradition of Zukat (the month of Ramadan) is supposed to teach one what it is like to be poor according to what I've read. In fact, humility is one of the basic teachings of any of the major modern religions that come to mind. What, pray tell, led you to believe otherwise?

Mageth · 04-01-2003, 01:16 PM

I don't see why we christians have to be experts in every other religion while you sit down in the sofa watching TV.

I'd wager that many atheists know as much or more about most religions than most christians - including christanity. That's been my experience here on this board, anyway.

mike_decock · 04-01-2003, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmborr
Wow, what a fine manipulation you did ! In this verse Jesus speaks that birds do not worry about FOOD, thus you should not worry about FOOD. Sure you know where to find in the gospels the verses where Jesus prompts you to worry about the "kingdom of God". Maybe animals have the ability to decide whether they should worry or not about food, and act on that decision. But this is miles away to the ability to worry about "who am I?".

The rest of that chapter has Jesus telling people not to worry about drink or clothing, either:

Matthew 6:31
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Actually, the chapter concludes with Jesus telling people not give ANY thought about providing for the next day.

Matthew 6:34
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

He also ordered his disciples not to carry any money, shoes, a staff or an extra cloak as they traveled around preaching

Matthew 10:9-10
Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

On the other hand, Paul (or whoever the author was), didn't agree with that attitude:

1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

-Mike...

Tabula_rasa · 04-01-2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

jmborr:
I don't see why we christians have to be experts in every other religion while you sit down in the sofa watching TV.

I hope you provide some evidence to back up such an insulting remark.

The World's Religions Huston Smith (actually, any book by Huston Smith)
Religions of the World: The Illustrated Guide to Origins, Beliefs, Traditions & Festivals Elizabeth Breuilly, et al
Exploring the World's Religions Irving Alan Sparks
The World's Religions Ninian Smart

I'll provide you any and/or all of the books from my bookshelf related to Zen Buddhism on the assumption that you read them.

Sorry, one more thing. Go to the temples, churches and syagogues as well. Armchair atheists my ass. Get out and do something.

Tabula_rasa

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04-01-2003, 08:50 AM	#81
Tabula_rasa Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: East of Dumbville, MA Posts: 144	The comparison between "eternal afterlife" vs. "eternal reincarnation" vs. "one life that's it" is an interesting discussion in its own merit. In particular, I believe the latter. Aside from the historical fact that crucifixions took place ca. 2000 years ago, we have little to no evidence that the mythical Jesus figure was crucified much less resurrected. Even if such evidence were presented, there remains the problem of the whole resurrection story itself. Issues have been raised and none of these have really been addressed. 1) Does YWH still require blood sacrifices to appease his displeasure with his own "creation?" 2) Were the Romans acting of their own free will or was it predestined by YWH's plan? 3) If Jesus was YWH and YWH is still "alive" what was the real sacrifice anyway? There were other questions as well. No real responses that go beyond the "we know it happened the way it's depicted in the NT." Tabula_rasa

04-01-2003, 11:38 AM	#83
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	An afterlife would be nice (to me) only if it were similar to the life we currently have. You are correct. At least similar, better in some ways would be better. I'll modify my statement to say "A pleasant afterlife would be nice".

04-01-2003, 12:48 PM	#84
jmborr Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: everett MA USA Posts: 46	there are countless such unperceivable things from which one can choose one's beliefs. How to differentiate among them? I compared other religions I have read to christianity, and they scored low. I haven't seem them all, nor deep enough each one, it's true, but I made up my mind. Thus I can't judge other people's beliefs on my own merits. According to John's gospel, it is Jesus who judges. the bible uses a similar tactic, something about birds in the field not worrying about tomorrow... Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Mat 6:26 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! Wow, what a fine manipulation you did ! In this verse Jesus speaks that birds do not worry about FOOD, thus you should not worry about FOOD. Sure you know where to find in the gospels the verses where Jesus prompts you to worry about the "kingdom of God". Maybe animals have the ability to decide whether they should worry or not about food, and act on that decision. But this is miles away to the ability to worry about "who am I?". "luck" is another concept I lack belief in. OK, what about this: may the random motion of the atoms favor you.

04-01-2003, 01:02 PM	#85
jmborr Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: everett MA USA Posts: 46	Now you're just being evasive. He asked you the question to demonstrate how analogous your claims were to a similar situation. Your refusal to asnwer merely emphasizes the extent of your cognitive dissonance. I was evasive because it's hard to reply everyone, and I chose to reply other things I know more about. So now I am doomed to read about Hinduism . Well, I would challenge any atheist to read also about Hinduism, and then we can talk. I don't see why we christians have to be experts in every other religion while you sit down in the sofa watching TV. Any good books on the subject ?

04-01-2003, 01:14 PM	#86
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I compared other religions I have read to christianity, and they scored low. I haven't seem them all, nor deep enough each one, it's true, but I made up my mind. That doesn't tell me much. How did you "score" them? What leads you to believe your scoring system is "the one" to discriminate among religions to find the "correct" one? Wow, what a fine manipulation you did ! I wasn't manipulating Jesus' comments (I didn't even have them in mind when I made my kitty comments), and I wasn't directly comparing my comments to Jesus'. I merely said Jesus used a similar method, using animals to make a point about human existence. Maybe animals have the ability to decide whether they should worry or not about food, and act on that decision. But this is miles away to the ability to worry about "who am I?". So you don't think a cat knows it's a "cat", however it forms the concept in its own little kitty thoughts? They sure know that another cat is a cat, and a dog, scratching post or stuffed animal are not cats, so they appear able to distinguish cat from not-cat. The answer to "who am I?" for a cat would be I'm a cat, nothing else. The answer to "who am I" for a human should be "I'm a human, nothing else." The point I'm making is, no matter what the "awareness" level of a cat is, it lives its life as a cat, and, whether through lack of ability to think such philosophical thoughts or some innate "wisdom" we cannot grasp, does not strive to be something it is not. Like the cat, I don't strive to be something I'm not. I'm a human animal, like the cat is a cat animal. Thus, one should heed the wisdom of the cat, do as the cat does and accept your animaldom. Striving for a life beyond this animal life we have, striving to be something that transcends the human animal, is a hopeless fantasy, a bit of foolishness we've cooked up in our human "wisdom."

04-01-2003, 01:16 PM	#88
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I don't see why we christians have to be experts in every other religion while you sit down in the sofa watching TV. I'd wager that many atheists know as much or more about most religions than most christians - including christanity. That's been my experience here on this board, anyway.

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