bonduca

I think conservative Christianity turns women into objects by insisting that they repress their sexuality and conform to the image of "virtuous" womanhood. It seems to stem from a fear of and desire to repress or contain women's sexual nature. So I would consider it a form of reverse sexual objectification.

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

bonduca

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

Clutch

Brighid, This particular passage makes you sound determined to take offense, no matter what.

Consider: Would you be appeased by your colleagues' saying to you: "I think of you primarily as a woman"? So what *can* your colleagues think of you, that would not be ignorant and offensive in your eyes? The examples you give, so far from being ignorant, might very easily be thought to be well-meaning efforts to emphasize that you are viewed as a person, a mind, a peer, or whatever, and not simply as a gender category. What's even a little bit wrong with that?

In the unlikely event that it became relevant to mention my views about my (academic) colleagues' genders, I would tell each of them that I do not think of them as women, nor as men. I think of them *foremost* as colleagues. Obviously I am aware that they are of whatever sex they happen to be. In some cases I am *occasionally* very strongly aware of it, since some are quite physically attractive. But in no case would it be overall correct to say that I predominately categorize them by sex or gender.

What on earth is the problem with that?

By the way: in my fairly wide academic travels, I have encountered nothing of the image of otherwise attractive women making themselves androgynous or mousy to be taken seriously. I have no reason to regard this as anything other than a myth. In the academy, as in the rest of society, being gorgeous is typically a boost; for the most part, in any case, it's publications that talk. There might be more women who do not go out of their way to be attractive in academics than in society at large, but then, that's just academics. Ever take a look at the *guys*? One might just as easily conclude that male academics have to let themselves be doughy fashion victims in order to be taken seriously...

vixstile

Here are some lyrics that I think suit this discussion

BATA MOTEL by Crass

I've got 54321.
I've got a red pair of high-heels on.
Tumble me over, it doesn't take much.
Tumble me over, tumble me push.
In my red high-heels, I've no control.
The rituals of repression are so old.
You can do what you like, there'll be no reprisal.
I'm yours, yes i'm yours, it's my means of survival.
I've got 54321.
Come on my love, i know you're strong.
Push me hard, make me stagger.
The pain in my back just doesn't matter.
You force-hold me above the ground.
I can't get away, my feet are bound.
So i'm bound to say that i'm bound to stay.
Well today i look so good.
Just like i know i should.
My breasts to tempt inside my bra.
My face is painted like a movie star.
I've studied my flaws in your reflection, and put them to rights with savage correction.
I've turned my statuesque perfection, and shone it over in your direction.
So come on darling, make me yours.
Trip me over.
Show me the floor.
Tease me, tease me.
Make me stay.
In my red high-heels i can't get away.
I'm trussed and bound like an oven ready bird, but i bleed without dying, and i won't say a word.
Slice my flesh and i'll ride the scar.
Put me into gear like your lady car.
Drive me fast and crash me crazy, i'll rise from the wreckage as fresh as a daisy.
These wounds leave furrows as they heal.
I've travelled them, they're red and real.
I know them well, they're part of me.
My birth, my sex, my history.
They grew with me, my closest friend.
My pain's my own, my pain's my end.
Clip my wings so you know where i am.
I can't get lost while you're my man.
Tame me so i know your call.
I've stabbed my heels so i am tall.
I've bound my twisted falling fall.
Beautiful mute against the wall.
Beautifully mutilated as i fall.
Use me, don't lose me.
I've got 54321.
I've got a red pair of high-heels on.
Strap my ankles, break my heels.
Make me kneel, make me feel.
Turn, turn, turn, like a clockwork doll.
Put in your key and give me a whirl.
Tease me, tease me, the reason to play.
In my red high-heels i can't get away.
I'll be your bonsai, your beautiful bonsai.
Your black-eyed bonsai, erotically rotting.
Will my tiny feet fit your desire? warped and tied, i walk on fire.
Burn me out.
Twist my wrists.
I promise not to shout.
Beat me with your fists.
Squeeze me, squeeze me, make me feel.
In my red high-heels, i'm an easy kill.
Tease me, tease me, make me see, you're the only one i need.
To be me.
Thankyou, will you take me?
Thankyou, will you make me?
Thankyou, will you break me?
Use me, don't lose me.
Taste me, don't waste me.
Use, lose, taste, waste.

ju'iblex

you were complaining about being ignored; well i cant go past this.

im having a little trouble believing that, you quote me one example from a newspaper "proving" your point. look around you! for example, a Windsor Smith shoe advertisement outside my train station shows a woman sitting on a couch, lips open, in front of a man who is standing up with his groin near her mouth, more than implicit of fellatio. Who's being objectified? Ralph, Playboy, FHM, Penthouse, Lara Croft, Baywatch, Miss America contests, cheerleaders, would you like me to stop?

The objectification of women is ingrained into western society, yes. &lt;and now luvluv is going to say i have proved his point for him, but i havent at all&gt;.

Considering the Western world is more than obviously a patriarchy, and has been since before Roman times, im a little confused where yoiuget off claiming men are the victims. that goes for snatchbalance as well.

unless ive misinterpreted you, if so, please let me down off this high horse nicely.

you what?

a man is forced into fatherhood??? just like he's forced not to use a condom, or forced to have intercourse in the first place? How could moral responsibility ever be imposed on the men, afterall sexual activity is imperative to their survival!

you have got to be kidding me.

if a man does not want to be a father then he is more than competent enough to make that choice for himself.

as for a woman "never being indentured", that is the biggest pile of crap ever. Say an abortion is against her religion, which often is the case, or she has no access to abortion facilities which is applicable in a great number of countries, is that not then indenture? I find it difficult to believe that no woman is indentured by having children.

Amen-Moses

So why are men rated by their attractiveness to women? (by men I might add!)

Why is it that in every porn film I have ever seen only the women are depicted as having personalities, the men are just depicted as walking dildos. The storylines always revolve around the women even when so-called male "stars" are in the films.

Women hold all the power when it comes to sex in society, I would love to be seen as a sex object by a woman, just once, instead of objectified as a walking wallet. Instead I have to work my arse off in order to supply some dopey cow with succour whilst she sits their dreaming about sex with George Clooney or Stephen Segal.

If I see another advert containing a six pack stomach I'm gonna be physically sick!

Amen-Moses

ju'iblex

interesting you havent considered the other side of that street. i havent said men are not objectified, im saying, in our society, it is far less common for this to be done when speaking relatively.
i cant speak for what you have seen, and also that was your perception of the characterisation, not exactly conclusive stuff.

that, Amen-Moses, is offensive and utter tripe. a delightful combination of stereotype, generalisation and stupidity. initially, you complain about seeing men being objectified sexually in society, and you reiterate that, then say you too would like to be objectified in such a way. what a complete hypocrite you are, not to mention by that last sentence a misogynist as well.

and my most important point, who the hell dreams about Clooney or Segal?

Typhon

...only in nightmares, Juiblex, only in nightmares.

Oh my, Amen-Mo,

I've never personally heard such unsubstantiated and backasswards crap in all my days...EVER.

Oh, I know stupider things have been said, at least in theory, or somewhere, likely in the history of the Cosmos. I've just never been around before to actually hear them before.

I'm with you on this one as well Juiblex, Steven Segal? My god (looks greenish at the thought), if I was a heterosexual female, or a homosexual male, he alone would be nearly reason enough to jump ship. If I was to bed down with a guy, he'd not be the one…gaaaaaaaaah (tries to wipe thought from memory, where it lies like a greasy, horrifying stain).

I think we've got one here, Faceless Lass, that's nuttier than the proverbial fruitbat, er, I mean fruitcake.

Ta,

.T.

ju'iblex

obviously MeBeMe has never graced thy presence. i wouldnt say nutty as such, more neanderthal, but now im just getting pedantic.

Panta Pei

One name:

MoG

'nuff said