Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ruy Lopez · 04-17-2003, 08:44 PM

If WMDs are that important as the US claims, the invasion was one quick way to distribute them, if any, to other "terrorists".

If reports of "weapons grade plutonium" are reported found in Iraq, that's obviously fake. Plutonium is a most precious weapon against Israel and US, why leave them in some warehouse or dump? They would be given to those who could use them.

Farren · 04-17-2003, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde
One little item I haven't seen any comment on in these precincts was shown on CNN early in the week:

1) a report in the crawl at the bottom of the screen said that in France authorities reported that the "toxic ricin" found in a locker at a Paris train station last month (as in March) proved to be, on chemical analysis, wheat germ and barley.

2) It occurs to me that if the "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" can be so wrong for weeks about a "substance" found in the calm of their own capital city, it's not in the slightest bit surprising that UK/US soldiers who have been fighting a war, and have tried to avoid both potshots, and the riotous behaviour of looters, have been so slow in getting a bead on the WMD systems of Iraq. Most of the corrections/retractions by the coalition have been made in DAYS, not weeks.

Cheers!

Leonarde,

the whole argument can be turned on its head. It occurs to me that if a nation has an occupying force of 250 000 troops and a strong motivation to and the primary objective of finding WMD's, they've got a better chance than the Parisian police for whom this is just another one of potentially thousands of cases.

Zar · 04-18-2003, 02:16 AM

Update: Saddam�s Scientists Not Talking About Iraqi Weapons Program

"Not Talking" seems to me like an outright lie in that headline. From the article itself, it is clear that both of the captured men are indeed talking, but just simply not singing the tune the U.S. wants to hear.

Even without the threat of Saddam, and every reason to increase their value to their captors by embellishing their stories, they insist there is no nuclear weapons program, and other information given is apparently not of much use or doesn't amount to anything damaging.

leonarde · 04-18-2003, 06:26 AM

Posted by Farren:

Quote:

Leonarde,

the whole argument can be turned on its head. It occurs to me that if a nation has an occupying force of 250 000 troops and a strong motivation to and the primary objective of finding WMD's, they've got a better chance than the Parisian police for whom this is just another one of potentially thousands of cases.

But don't you understand? This is not about "finding" a substance. It is about correctly identifying a substance already found in Paris, the biggest city and capital of France, and no doubt the location of the Minstries of Defense, Public Health etc (whose facilities could be used for said identification). It took them WEEKS to do this (identify the substance correctly).

Of the 250,000 troops in Iraq, how many have the background to evaluate (potential) toxic substances? Very few.
They find something, consider it suspicious, talk to reporters, and notify someone further up in the chain of command. Eventually---usually within the week---- a correction or retraction is made at the CENTCOM or Pentagon levels. This process, now repeated several times, is held up as a form of (transparent) propaganda by the coalition. Whereas I see it as a natural tendency for subordinate elements to brag to embedded reporters about their finds.

I, for one, would never claim that the French's original claim to have found ricin was some "propaganda"; but then again I'm not eager to use each and every false lead to beat up on the French.

Cheers!

Zar · 04-18-2003, 09:46 AM

leonarde,

There's that word again. Propaganda. What is propaganda to you? Do you really know it when you see it?

Regardless, I don't think the French had any goals to be served by the incident in their country. Perhaps the best propaganda move for them is to not make a big fuss. The suppression of a story can still be considered propaganda, though it is indirect. If nothing can be made of a thing, it is ignored or at least not pumped up to high volume.

At any rate, besides the desire to avoid anything the U.S. military/media promulgates being characterized as propaganda, I and others have already stated what effect on the ground we think this little story has. Not much.

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04-17-2003, 08:44 PM	#71
Ruy Lopez Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manila Posts: 5,516	If WMDs are that important as the US claims, the invasion was one quick way to distribute them, if any, to other "terrorists". If reports of "weapons grade plutonium" are reported found in Iraq, that's obviously fake. Plutonium is a most precious weapon against Israel and US, why leave them in some warehouse or dump? They would be given to those who could use them.

04-18-2003, 02:16 AM	#73
Zar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Chicago, IL USA Posts: 3,477	Update: Saddam�s Scientists Not Talking About Iraqi Weapons Program "Not Talking" seems to me like an outright lie in that headline. From the article itself, it is clear that both of the captured men are indeed talking, but just simply not singing the tune the U.S. wants to hear. Even without the threat of Saddam, and every reason to increase their value to their captors by embellishing their stories, they insist there is no nuclear weapons program, and other information given is apparently not of much use or doesn't amount to anything damaging.

04-18-2003, 09:46 AM	#75
Zar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Chicago, IL USA Posts: 3,477	leonarde, There's that word again. Propaganda. What is propaganda to you? Do you really know it when you see it? Regardless, I don't think the French had any goals to be served by the incident in their country. Perhaps the best propaganda move for them is to not make a big fuss. The suppression of a story can still be considered propaganda, though it is indirect. If nothing can be made of a thing, it is ignored or at least not pumped up to high volume. At any rate, besides the desire to avoid anything the U.S. military/media promulgates being characterized as propaganda, I and others have already stated what effect on the ground we think this little story has. Not much.

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