Freethought & Rationalism Archive

10-11-2002, 05:28 PM

"You seem to have the idea that atheists are Christians who don't believe in the Christian God (whatever that means). Atheists don't believe in ANY god. Why in the world would an atheist agree that the only two choices are that there is no god or that the Christian God exists?"

"Pascal's wager ONLY makes sense if one has accepted the initial premise that Christianity is true. And it certainly isn't much utility in that case unless it is used to scare people from questioning their faith. "

By K

My reply : True. Pascal's Wager works only in Christian community since Christians believe in a single life, single God, and single chance for starvation.
In a religion such as Buddhism, Hindusm and Toaist, this Wager doesn't work in the same way, since the matrix colum will increase by introduction of Reincarnation concept and multiple Gods/Deity concepts.
Reincarnation will increase the number of throws a person gets (more than one life is available) thus whatever bet he made in this one and lost, will be fixed in the next one.
Multiple deities/Gods concepts will increase the chance of winning to outweight the chance of losing. A person can bet on one deity and still win because people such as Hindus believe that Deities are extension of a Super God just like the body part are extension of One body. Thus, the Wager have to be reviewed in this new terms.

"For Pascal's Wager to work in the xian's favor, xians must prove the following lemma:
If a god exists, then it is unique. Moreover, said god is the xian god."
By Goliath

My reply : Yes, Wager's bet based on whether there is a God (Christian) or not.

"Man, you're almost as bellicose and arrogant as me. I like that. "
By Kind Bud

My reply : Bellicose and Arrogant? In what way? I posted the Wager because I thought it was an interesting reading material, not as a challenge to anyone or any beliefs.

"If your do not increase the number of columns, then the matrix entries will be totally indeterminate. The results of believing in God X and of believing in God Y will in general be quite different (especially if X sees Y as a competitor and punishes Y-believers much more severely than atheists)."
By HRG (supposed to stand for Human Rights Group?)

My reply : Pascal didn't think of there is two Gods (probably because he is a Christian or living in a Christian community). There is only 1 bet and 2 outcomes. I don't see why the assumption that there need to be more columns added to the original arguments.

"Also, the columns increase greatly when once considers some more "non-Catholic" possibilities in a supreme being"
By Agnos1

My reply : Once a Christian consider a non-Catholic" or a Non-Christian God, then could he still be consider as a Christian? Woulf Pascal's Wager still work on him? I don't believe so.

10-11-2002, 06:00 PM

"I know this is a discussion, and not a contest, but...
You lose Seraphim. Didn't you read the guidelines that say not to post Pascal's wager for the umpteenth time? That is posted there because it is the most easily destroyed argument a Christian can bring up, and people are getting tired of it. "
By xeren

My reply : I have no read any guidelines regarding not to post about Pascal's Wager. It maybe most easily destroyable argument a Christian could come out with, but you have mistaken two things here - 1. I'm not a Christian, and 2. You have not argued with me yet. Till the discussion is over, it is yet to be determined who had lost and who won.

"An atheist made seraphim mad.I blame that mentally unstable atheist"
by kama

My reply : Here's a friendly face, if there is ever a one around.

. Welcome.
And NO, he didn't make me mad, but I took his "invitation" as a challenge. After all, what is in this world if there is no challenge. How you find some too, Kama.

Goliath · 10-11-2002, 06:58 PM

Tercel,

Quote:

Don't you get rather bored of saying the same thing every time PW is mentioned?

Not yet.

Quote:

I know I get bored of reading it.

Well, if you look at the upper-right corner of your browser window, you'll probably notice a little button with an "X" on it. Go ahead and push it.

Or is someone forcing you at gunpoint to read each and every one of my posts?

Quote:

Since the versions of PW that are shown problematic by your unproved-lemma correlate fairly well with the ones subject to the wrong-hell problem,

Uhhhh...versions of PW? I suppose you can replace the xian god with an arbitrary god, or by a pantheon of gods.

So, suppose we choose a PW that corresponds to a (potentially uncountable) collection G of gods. To show that this PW is valid, you'll have to prove the following (reformulated) lemma:

If a god exists, it can only be a god in G. Furthermore, all gods in G exist.

Again, I wish you luck!

Quote:

I see no point in even attempting to prove your lemma (especially since I can't, of course)

Well, if you can't prove it, then that's fine. However, don't expect anyone to take any of your "arguments" on this matter seriously.

Quote:

since it's redundant anyway.

Huh? How so?

Quote:

I'd personally be more interested in looking at a version of PW that isn't subject to those sort of objections...

No such PW exists--see above.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Autonemesis · 10-11-2002, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim
Bellicose and Arrogant? In what way?

Well, you took the most shop-worn, been-there-done-that, 1st-question-in-the-FAQ topic that there is, posted it to the Philosophy forum with the comment "I'm not sure where too put, so I will dump it on Philosophy Section" and you did it within your first ten posts.

What else can I say to such a trifecta? Bravo! <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Goliath · 10-11-2002, 07:07 PM

Seraphim,

Quote:

Yes, Wager's bet based on whether there is a God (Christian) or not

Incorrect. The general form of Pascal's Wager can be applied to any collection of gods. However, to use it in the xian's favor, you must show that more than one god can not exist. Otherwise there are many, perhaps infinitely many, choices of gods that one can wager on, thus destroying PW.

Also, even if it can be shown that at most one god exists, for PW to work in the xian's favor, it must be shown that if a god exists, it must be the xian god (otherwise who's to say whether or not it'd be safer to bet on Allah?)

Sincerely,

Goliath

Uzzah · 10-11-2002, 07:18 PM

Quote:

My reply : True. Pascal's Wager works only in Christian community since Christians believe in a single life, single God, and single chance for starvation.

I'm sorry, but it was too funny to pass up....

Uzzah

10-11-2002, 07:34 PM

"Well, you took the most shop-worn, been-there-done-that, 1st-question-in-the-FAQ topic that there is, posted it to the Philosophy forum with the comment "I'm not sure where too put, so I will dump it on Philosophy Section" and you did it within your first ten posts.
What else can I say to such a trifecta? Bravo! "
By Kind Bud

My Reply : Actually, that way my 1st thread and 1st post as soon as I stepped on this forum. I still don't get it ... what's a big deal? I've never seen this topic been discussed in my former forum, so it's new to me. And YES, I didn't know where to put it.

Incorrect. The general form of Pascal's Wager can be applied to any collection of gods. However, to use it in the xian's favor, you must show that more than one god can not exist. Otherwise there are many, perhaps infinitely many, choices of gods that one can wager on, thus destroying PW.

"Also, even if it can be shown that at most one god exists, for PW to work in the xian's favor, it must be shown that if a god exists, it must be the xian god (otherwise who's to say whether or not it'd be safer to bet on Allah?)"
By Goliath

My reply : Yes, IF you are a Christian and wondering there is such thing as a Christian God. It is same as my "Who wants to be a Millionaire?" example. someone who doesn't know the answer will try and seek an answer, even so the one he or she seeks the answer from may not be very sure about the answer him/herself.
But that doesn't mean God doesn't exist nor does it mean that Christians are making mistake.

"I'm sorry, but it was too funny to pass up.... "
By Uzzah

My reply : Funny? In what way?

Corgan Sow · 10-11-2002, 09:32 PM

My Reply : Actually, that way my 1st thread and 1st post as soon as I stepped on this forum. I still don't get it ... what's a big deal? I've never seen this topic been discussed in my former forum, so it's new to me. And YES, I didn't know where to put it.

Sorry about forgetting to inform that pascal's Wager is a fucked-up cliche.

My reply : Yes, IF you are a Christian and wondering there is such thing as a Christian God. It is same as my "Who wants to be a Millionaire?" example. someone who doesn't know the answer will try and seek an answer, even so the one he or she seeks the answer from may not be very sure about the answer him/herself.
But that doesn't mean God doesn't exist nor does it mean that Christians are making mistake.

Again, if your God places salvation based on BETS, no one's gonna worship him. Jesus man, you're a laughing stock now!

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

My reply : Funny? In what way?

That it is a bloody cliche. Again, prove there is a God, don't just use the "if" question.

I'm giving you an advice here. if you continue to defend your arguments by "But what IF..." for a billionth time, people are going to ignore you.

10-11-2002, 09:44 PM

"Sorry about forgetting to inform that pascal's Wager is a fucked-up cliche."

My reply : Then you shouldn't have challenged me to come and try solve the Wager in the first place. And your language ... I persume that the rules are applied to you as well when comes to posting messages.

"Again, if your God places salvation based on BETS, no one's gonna worship him. Jesus man, you're a laughing stock now! "

My reply : God didn't play the bet, Pascal did. Go and ask him why he came up with Pascal's Wager.

"That it is a bloody cliche. Again, prove there is a God, don't just use the "if" question.

I'm giving you an advice here. if you continue to defend your arguments by "But what IF..." for a billionth time, people are going to ignore you. "

My reply : If I continue to defend my argument? What do you think I'm here for? To make friends and chat?
Frankly speaking, you guys are too scared to even think about other posibilities other than what your little minds tell you. You have no belief, no faith and no strenght, and whenever you guys see someone else who is different, you all gang up on him and try to scare him into following you ... just like Christians and Muslims are doing with their religion. So do think you guys are any different from a Religionist.

Corgan Sow · 10-11-2002, 09:55 PM

My reply : Then you shouldn't have challenged me to come and try solve the Wager in the first place. And your language ... I persume that the rules are applied to you as well when comes to posting messages.

I'll reply. Wait.

My reply : God didn't play the bet, Pascal did. Go and ask him why he came up with Pascal's Wager.

Don't play deny game. You've taunted me in other topics that if God exists I'll be in big trouble...

My reply : If I continue to defend my argument? What do you think I'm here for? To make friends and chat?
Frankly speaking, you guys are too scared to even think about other posibilities other than what your little minds tell you. You have no belief, no faith and no strenght, and whenever you guys see someone else who is different, you all gang up on him and try to scare him into following you ... just like Christians and Muslims are doing with their religion. So do think you guys are any different from a Religionist.

Thanks. You've just opened up a can of whoop ass...

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10-11-2002, 05:28 PM	#21
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"You seem to have the idea that atheists are Christians who don't believe in the Christian God (whatever that means). Atheists don't believe in ANY god. Why in the world would an atheist agree that the only two choices are that there is no god or that the Christian God exists?" "Pascal's wager ONLY makes sense if one has accepted the initial premise that Christianity is true. And it certainly isn't much utility in that case unless it is used to scare people from questioning their faith. " By K My reply : True. Pascal's Wager works only in Christian community since Christians believe in a single life, single God, and single chance for starvation. In a religion such as Buddhism, Hindusm and Toaist, this Wager doesn't work in the same way, since the matrix colum will increase by introduction of Reincarnation concept and multiple Gods/Deity concepts. Reincarnation will increase the number of throws a person gets (more than one life is available) thus whatever bet he made in this one and lost, will be fixed in the next one. Multiple deities/Gods concepts will increase the chance of winning to outweight the chance of losing. A person can bet on one deity and still win because people such as Hindus believe that Deities are extension of a Super God just like the body part are extension of One body. Thus, the Wager have to be reviewed in this new terms. "For Pascal's Wager to work in the xian's favor, xians must prove the following lemma: If a god exists, then it is unique. Moreover, said god is the xian god." By Goliath My reply : Yes, Wager's bet based on whether there is a God (Christian) or not. "Man, you're almost as bellicose and arrogant as me. I like that. " By Kind Bud My reply : Bellicose and Arrogant? In what way? I posted the Wager because I thought it was an interesting reading material, not as a challenge to anyone or any beliefs. "If your do not increase the number of columns, then the matrix entries will be totally indeterminate. The results of believing in God X and of believing in God Y will in general be quite different (especially if X sees Y as a competitor and punishes Y-believers much more severely than atheists)." By HRG (supposed to stand for Human Rights Group?) My reply : Pascal didn't think of there is two Gods (probably because he is a Christian or living in a Christian community). There is only 1 bet and 2 outcomes. I don't see why the assumption that there need to be more columns added to the original arguments. "Also, the columns increase greatly when once considers some more "non-Catholic" possibilities in a supreme being" By Agnos1 My reply : Once a Christian consider a non-Catholic" or a Non-Christian God, then could he still be consider as a Christian? Woulf Pascal's Wager still work on him? I don't believe so.

10-11-2002, 06:00 PM	#22
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"I know this is a discussion, and not a contest, but... You lose Seraphim. Didn't you read the guidelines that say not to post Pascal's wager for the umpteenth time? That is posted there because it is the most easily destroyed argument a Christian can bring up, and people are getting tired of it. " By xeren My reply : I have no read any guidelines regarding not to post about Pascal's Wager. It maybe most easily destroyable argument a Christian could come out with, but you have mistaken two things here - 1. I'm not a Christian, and 2. You have not argued with me yet. Till the discussion is over, it is yet to be determined who had lost and who won. "An atheist made seraphim mad.I blame that mentally unstable atheist" by kama My reply : Here's a friendly face, if there is ever a one around. . Welcome. And NO, he didn't make me mad, but I took his "invitation" as a challenge. After all, what is in this world if there is no challenge. How you find some too, Kama.

10-11-2002, 07:34 PM	#27
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"Well, you took the most shop-worn, been-there-done-that, 1st-question-in-the-FAQ topic that there is, posted it to the Philosophy forum with the comment "I'm not sure where too put, so I will dump it on Philosophy Section" and you did it within your first ten posts. What else can I say to such a trifecta? Bravo! " By Kind Bud My Reply : Actually, that way my 1st thread and 1st post as soon as I stepped on this forum. I still don't get it ... what's a big deal? I've never seen this topic been discussed in my former forum, so it's new to me. And YES, I didn't know where to put it. Incorrect. The general form of Pascal's Wager can be applied to any collection of gods. However, to use it in the xian's favor, you must show that more than one god can not exist. Otherwise there are many, perhaps infinitely many, choices of gods that one can wager on, thus destroying PW. "Also, even if it can be shown that at most one god exists, for PW to work in the xian's favor, it must be shown that if a god exists, it must be the xian god (otherwise who's to say whether or not it'd be safer to bet on Allah?)" By Goliath My reply : Yes, IF you are a Christian and wondering there is such thing as a Christian God. It is same as my "Who wants to be a Millionaire?" example. someone who doesn't know the answer will try and seek an answer, even so the one he or she seeks the answer from may not be very sure about the answer him/herself. But that doesn't mean God doesn't exist nor does it mean that Christians are making mistake. "I'm sorry, but it was too funny to pass up.... " By Uzzah My reply : Funny? In what way?

10-11-2002, 09:32 PM	#28
Corgan Sow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 1,537	My Reply : Actually, that way my 1st thread and 1st post as soon as I stepped on this forum. I still don't get it ... what's a big deal? I've never seen this topic been discussed in my former forum, so it's new to me. And YES, I didn't know where to put it. Sorry about forgetting to inform that pascal's Wager is a fucked-up cliche. My reply : Yes, IF you are a Christian and wondering there is such thing as a Christian God. It is same as my "Who wants to be a Millionaire?" example. someone who doesn't know the answer will try and seek an answer, even so the one he or she seeks the answer from may not be very sure about the answer him/herself. But that doesn't mean God doesn't exist nor does it mean that Christians are making mistake. Again, if your God places salvation based on BETS, no one's gonna worship him. Jesus man, you're a laughing stock now! <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> My reply : Funny? In what way? That it is a bloody cliche. Again, prove there is a God, don't just use the "if" question. I'm giving you an advice here. if you continue to defend your arguments by "But what IF..." for a billionth time, people are going to ignore you.

10-11-2002, 09:44 PM	#29
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"Sorry about forgetting to inform that pascal's Wager is a fucked-up cliche." My reply : Then you shouldn't have challenged me to come and try solve the Wager in the first place. And your language ... I persume that the rules are applied to you as well when comes to posting messages. "Again, if your God places salvation based on BETS, no one's gonna worship him. Jesus man, you're a laughing stock now! " My reply : God didn't play the bet, Pascal did. Go and ask him why he came up with Pascal's Wager. "That it is a bloody cliche. Again, prove there is a God, don't just use the "if" question. I'm giving you an advice here. if you continue to defend your arguments by "But what IF..." for a billionth time, people are going to ignore you. " My reply : If I continue to defend my argument? What do you think I'm here for? To make friends and chat? Frankly speaking, you guys are too scared to even think about other posibilities other than what your little minds tell you. You have no belief, no faith and no strenght, and whenever you guys see someone else who is different, you all gang up on him and try to scare him into following you ... just like Christians and Muslims are doing with their religion. So do think you guys are any different from a Religionist.

10-11-2002, 09:55 PM	#30
Corgan Sow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 1,537	My reply : Then you shouldn't have challenged me to come and try solve the Wager in the first place. And your language ... I persume that the rules are applied to you as well when comes to posting messages. I'll reply. Wait. My reply : God didn't play the bet, Pascal did. Go and ask him why he came up with Pascal's Wager. Don't play deny game. You've taunted me in other topics that if God exists I'll be in big trouble... My reply : If I continue to defend my argument? What do you think I'm here for? To make friends and chat? Frankly speaking, you guys are too scared to even think about other posibilities other than what your little minds tell you. You have no belief, no faith and no strenght, and whenever you guys see someone else who is different, you all gang up on him and try to scare him into following you ... just like Christians and Muslims are doing with their religion. So do think you guys are any different from a Religionist. Thanks. You've just opened up a can of whoop ass...

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