Freethought & Rationalism Archive

oriecat · 03-14-2003, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by malookiemaloo
Greetings.

What makes you think that Adam and Eve would not have had children if they had not sinned?

m

It's just my reading of the book. Genesis 3:16 says "in pain you shall bring forth children". To me that says now you will have children and it will hurt, not you would have had children before but it wouldn't have hurt but now it will. But that's just me. Also because until the sin, they didn't know they were naked. If you don't even know you're naked, how can you expect to do naked stuff?

And then Gen 4:1 says "Now Adam knew Eve his wife", as in he didn't "know" her before.

oriecat · 03-14-2003, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gravitybow
The command was, "Be fruitful and multiply." Genesis 1: 28

Thanks. I couldn't find that in my book and when I did a search at biblegateway, it defaulted to a version that doesn't say multiply so it didn't come up in my multiply search.

oriecat · 03-14-2003, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by malookiemaloo
The tree of life would have been superfluous before Adam and Eve sinned. Indeed there is no reason to suppose that they did not eat of it.

Gen 3:22 makes it seem pretty clear that god knew they had not eaten of it and he had to kick them out quick before they did.

gravitybow · 03-14-2003, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oriecat
Thanks. I couldn't find that in my book and when I did a search at biblegateway, it defaulted to a version that doesn't say multiply so it didn't come up in my multiply search.

Yeah, I use biblegateway a lot, also. It's useful, but they don't have the Revised Standard Version any more. I prefer that one. I actually looked it up the old-fashioned way in a real Bible instead of using the immaculate connection.

03-14-2003, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loki
Gen 3 is my favorite chapter of the bible. .

Same here, very nice Loki. Of course, it is all metaphor but Gen.3 is the best thing thing that ever happened to man because that is where the rational mind (TOK) came to have an identity of its own that was needed to gain dominion as man (TOL).

This reality existed for million of years, no doubt, but here it was so described for us to recognize if and when we do come full circle in the myth. That is, in my view, is the important part of Gen.1-3.

oriecat · 03-14-2003, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gravitybow
Yeah, I use biblegateway a lot, also. It's useful, but they don't have the Revised Standard Version any more. I prefer that one. I actually looked it up the old-fashioned way in a real Bible instead of using the immaculate connection.

I see now why I missed finding in the book myself, because I didn't go back that far. I found Eve being created at the end of Gen 2, and there are no commands to them there about it, and I forgot about the other creation.

malookiemaloo · 03-14-2003, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oriecat
I had a feeling this would be said. So everything bad in the world appeared after the fall, there was no sin, life was perfect, until Eve screwed it up. At least that's what others say. How do you reconcile a loving god with a god who planned to release sin, death, disease, etc into the world? It's one thing for Pandora to open the box, not knowing what would happen. But god surely knew, especially if it was part of his own plan.

Love to respond but it's Friday afternoon here in Scotland and I'm off home. I do not have a PC at home but will reply when I am next in the office which will be Tuesday.

In the merantime, have a good weekend and speak again unless GW has brought about the end of the world before then.

m

spurly · 03-14-2003, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gravitybow
If A&E had not sinned, I'm sure they still would have procreated. It doesn't make sense for Jehovah to pair up all the animals and man, command his creation to multiply, but leave the pinnacle of his effort to disappear without a single generation.

I don't think the serpent played his cards right. If I had been him, I would have had A&E eat from the tree of everlasting life first. Then whatever happened after that would be well known since A&E would still be alive today, making the lecture circuit, appearing with televangelists, attending ribbon-cutting ceremonies, etc.

BTW, why do you need a tree of eternal life in a world where death is unknown?

Was the tree of life really what gave them eternal life, or was it their unhindered relationship with the author of life that allowed them to live forever. It was probably the second. When sin entered, the unhindered relationship with God ended, thus A&E no longer had unhindered access to the source of life, and the result was death. The tree of life was just a sybol of this truth.

Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

Kevin

Godless Dave · 03-14-2003, 08:36 AM

I suspect it's a holdover from an earlier story. God is struggling with how to create sentient beings that aren't gods. He figures if he eats of the tree of knowledge they will be able to converse with him intelligently, but if they eat the tree of life they will "become like us"; become as the gods are, and thus be competition.

beastmaster · 03-14-2003, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gravitybow
BTW, why do you need a tree of eternal life in a world where death is unknown?

Where does it say "death was unknown" in Eden?

Surely, there was no *predation* because every creature ate plants.

But to say there was no death seems an unjustified departure from the text.

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03-14-2003, 08:36 AM	#19
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	I suspect it's a holdover from an earlier story. God is struggling with how to create sentient beings that aren't gods. He figures if he eats of the tree of knowledge they will be able to converse with him intelligently, but if they eat the tree of life they will "become like us"; become as the gods are, and thus be competition.

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