Draygomb

Blu

Logic and Reason created Atheism.

If god is the first cause then god is totally unchangeable because he is out side of time.

But in order for god to be conscious god must have changes of thought.

So god can't be both the first cause and conscious. But a god without both isn't worthy of the title.

Megatron

Draygomb,

Not really. You're walking a line of belief here, not science. That's your call... but otherwise, I'm not touching that one... argue it with a theist...

Probably, but somewhat non-sequitur.

Again, not really. Go back to your topic that you linked to earlier in this thread and read Koy's posts there.

Blu

Let me get this straight:

The whole argument is that God can't exist because God is supposed to be conscious like human beings are conscious; therefore, God has changes in thought processes.

I guess I am a little confused. Who said God was conscious?

God is commonly thought of as having aspects that human beings have like consciousness. God is also thought of (by some) to be a "father" or male. Does that make it accurate?

Is your argument against the Judeo-Christian belief in God or the universal belief in God? This is where a lot of my confusion comes from regarding what ideas of God atheists do not believe in.

There are so many different beliefs out there. I personally believe you get closer to the "truth" when you take all your human aspects and make them separate from your idea of God. Consciousness is a human aspect so why is it connected by humans to God? Gender is a human aspect so why is it constantly connected to God? Will is also connected to God but will is also a human aspect. It is the same with emotion.

I personally have my own beliefs and I get very tired of hearing God referred to as a "He" or as "Father." I don't even call it "God." I call it the Universe. I also find Quantum mechanics (String theory) to be very spiritually fulfilling. Am I the only one?

Draygomb

Zero Angel

I couldn't get Koy to explain his problem. Perhaps you could explain it to me.

Draygomb

Blu

My definition of God comes from what I would require something to be In order for me to call it God. Without consciousness a thing is no better than a rock even if that rock can produce universes. Such a thing would not know or care that I existed.

If a thing is not the first cause then there is some thing which must have produced that thing and shouldn't we worship the producer rather than the product?

Megatron

He did explain it. Flaws in logic were the basis of it.

Anyway... enough hijacking. Go read there if you need clarification..

Blu

Draygomb,

So what is your definition of God or what is your definition of what people believe about God? I don't really care if your believe or if you do not. I am saying that people's ideas (Judeo-Christian's definition of God) is flawed and so are other people's ideas when they constantly attach earthly, physical, human aspects to "God."

My essential point was the human mind, its limited knowledge of the Universe, and its conscious confinement within time and space make it impossible for one human to be accurate about all origins (deity or otherwise) of the Universe, this dimension, and any idea having to do with a Supreme being. In that sense, how can someone disregard all ideas involving a Supreme being?

Lean towards "Open Mindedness." It is being humble to say "I don't know all there is to know, so I am not going to completely deny the existence of something just because I don't have the ability to comprehend it." The human being has sensed a Creator or a source ever since being conscious.

You are associating Consciousness with God which isn't going to get you anywhere. It is very hard to dissociate what you know of life on earth and your own existence from the Supreme Being. Because the Supreme being is so vast that you can't define it in those terms. It leads to confusion and it creates Atheism.

But most people (like in religions) need to associated Earthly aspects and their own consciousness with the Supreme Being because they want to emotionally/mentally attach to God. In order to do this, one must think like a human as a human and give God a face and a name... as well as Consciousness. With all of this in mind, it is safe to say Atheists are against the beliefs that people have regarding a Supreme Being rather than the actual Supreme Being.

People get caught up in word meanings as well regarding spirituality vs. atheism discussions. There are many meanings for words and people are very likely to misinterpret anything regarding words including Biblical text, and other such religious materials that are said to be ancient.

In this sense, religion is flawed when defining God but it is also necessary as well. People need associations. Take away associations, what do you have?

Take away earthly aspects from your idea of what God is thought of as being then you get closer. It is hard to do and it is a challenge. Few people take the challenge.

Draygomb

Blu

As I've said, If the first cause isn't conscious then it is just some magic rock perpetually spitting out universes.

Why worship a rock? It can't do anything for you. It can't punish you. It doesn't even know you exist. So, Why worship it?

Blu

Draygomb,

Your argument associating a rock with God doesn't make sense to me and it also doesn't really explain your views very well.

Would you be willing to use more words (explanatory words) when trying to explain your view point? I think then I would be able to reply better to your comments.

Thanks

Draygomb

Blu

I define God as the conscious first cause. For the reasons stated earlier.

You say god need not be conscious. To which I reply Then why call it god why worship it. Without consciouness it is just power without design or purpose. Would you also worship heat and electricity? <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />