Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jubal_DiGriz · 08-31-2007, 06:07 PM

The hunter/gatherer life requires a keen understanding of the cycles and patterns of nature. When will it become cold? How can I kill this dear? What plants are helpful?

Without any kind of media (except pictographs and cave paintings), the only way vital information could be transmitted across generations is orally. Often the accuracy of this information was a matter of life and death. It's a noted characteristic of human memory that we recall better by rote if it is placed in a context....mnemonic tools and stories.

Instead of trying to memorize the cycles of the moon that would anticipate winter precisely (although some did that, too) most cultures created stories that explained the relationship between seasons and lunar cycles, for instance. By giving meaning and anthropomorphizing natural events, humans gained some understanding of these patters, an ability to react to them, and the ability to pass the knowledge to the next generation.

It's easier to relate and think about a being that has human characteristics, so gods and spirits were often cast as a different sort of person, with influences normal people don't have. As the stories passed down through the ages, they adapted to the society as well, often granting legitimacy to the existing power structure (chief's family is blessed by the sun spirit, for instance), and thus serving a growing need for social stability.

When people began to settle into cities and populations began to boom, passing on the stories became a full-time job and led to the rise of a professional class whose sole duty was to remember all the things said in the past, often by rote. Their knowledge and aid was returned with gifts (or payment) of food, shelter, and other necessities.

As cities and nations continued to grow, these priests received so much tithing that they began to hold wealth beyond their needs. Wealth combined with knowledge equals power, and priests began to become involved in political decisions outside their specialty of retaining knowledge.

With greater trade, different cultures began to interact more, both peacefully and violently. Economic and physical conflict placed a greater need for cultures to assert their own identity. Part of this resulted in pantheons, with similar gods being placed in region-specific roles, and then as cultures assimilated each other, new gods were added.

Alongside all this was the development of writing, which eased the burden of the priests to remember everything. With more time not being spent in rote memorization, they were able to spend more time in their political roles, and well as refining and expanding the mythology.

First Egypt (The Cult of the Sun God), then Persia (Zoroastrianism), then a rising group of tribes that called themselves the Jews developed philosophically a unified idea of the universe, instead of a conflicting horde of forces. This monotheism proved very good at unifying disparate peoples under one religious and political system (see Constantine and Mohammad, as well as Persian history).

So that's a brief history of it. Some, maybe most, try to frame the event in philosophic arguments, but archeology, anthropology and history show a strong connection between the kinds of belief in gods and the development of societies. The question "Who thought up God" is about as useful as the question "Who thought up agriculture?".

kennethamy · 08-31-2007, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternallyI

I was wondering how and why did the question: Is there a God?, first come into the mind of humans? Was it in response to someone saying: "There is a God."? And if so, where did that person come up with it?

It seems that even the creatures that men have invented(in their minds) are based upon some strange combination of created matter that, in the natural world, no one has actually seen (unicorns, mermaids, fairies, etc.). Is God simply a name that we have given to explain human consciousness, or is there actually a God that is known through this consciousness and is the reason that we possess it(consciousness)?

It seems to me that in light of this mystery, religion does the best in explaining it; and that Christianity does so quite adequately. And if Christianity does have an explanation, why is it discounted as foolishness? Isn't it proper that God should give an explanation of creation to the creatures that are, for some reason, aware that they have a consciousness? Why is Christianity rejected simply because it does have answers? For my experience has been that if a non-Christian asks for a reason for something that is experienced in the world, or a question concerning the Christian faith, they reject the answer by claiming that the basis(the belief that there is a God) is questionable? Why in the heck would someone even ask the question, if they can't arrive at any understanding apart from the basic belief? And if they do temporarily accept the belief for arguments sake(I'm still suspicious that this is even possible in regards to the question of God), why at the point of explanation do they retreat to the rejection of the idea that they claim to have accepted for the sake of the argument?

You aren't asking the question seriously, because you have the answer already made up. So this is not really an inquiry. You are just looking for a confirmation of what you already believe, and you are just pretending to ask a real question. You already think you know the answer. So this is all a farce.

Headache · 08-31-2007, 06:23 PM

Conversation from the stone age:

Man1: uhhh sun shining.. uhhh why?
Man2: Uhhh God did it! God make it shine?
Man1: uhhh what's god?
Man1: Uhhh god is... uhhh the one who created the earth and sun and uhhh everything!
Man2: <Thinking for a long time....> Rain uuh storm uuhh god too?
Man1: Uhhh hmmm uhh yes! God angry! storm!
Man2: <thinks again, goes over to his goats, selects one> Here god... take my offer, make no storms! <proceeds to cut off head of goat and sacrifice it to god for good weather>
Man1: <Looks on bewildered... thinking..before returning to the flock> Uhh everyone! god angy.. storm... sactifice! see.. Kukka is sacrificing his goat to god so we can have good weather! Now, I say, you too sacrifiec!

and so man1 figure out that gods, no matter how invisible, gives him power and status and in stone age times, this is a good thing for survival and for getting women and offspring to provide for you. Religion grows.

So, the slick used car sales men with oily hair or preachers as they are called today continue this scam and are getting richer and richer every minute and dumb humans swallow like a good hooker!

kennethamy · 08-31-2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headache

Conversation from the stone age:

Man1: uhhh sun shining.. uhhh why?
Man2: Uhhh God did it! God make it shine?
Man1: uhhh what's god?
Man1: Uhhh god is... uhhh the one who created the earth and sun and uhhh everything!
Man2: <Thinking for a long time....> Rain uuh storm uuhh god too?
Man1: Uhhh hmmm uhh yes! God angry! storm!
Man2: <thinks again, goes over to his goats, selects one> Here god... take my offer, make no storms! <proceeds to cut off head of goat and sacrifice it to god for good weather>
Man1: <Looks on bewildered... thinking..before returning to the flock> Uhh everyone! god angy.. storm... sactifice! see.. Kukka is sacrificing his goat to god so we can have good weather! Now, I say, you too sacrifiec!

and so man1 figure out that gods, no matter how invisible, gives him power and status and in stone age times, this is a good thing for survival and for getting women and offspring to provide for you. Religion grows.

So, the slick used car sales men with oily hair or preachers as they are called today continue this scam and are getting richer and richer every minute and dumb humans swallow like a good hooker!

Can I infer from the above that you do not believe in God? I am interested to know that. But is it the point of this thread for you to let us know that?

aa5874 · 08-31-2007, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

Consider the Mog the caveman. He subsists on roots, plants and animals that could be killed with club and stone and yet could kill him equally as well. Countless objects of terror and wonderment surround him. He stands next to rivers with no beginning or end, by bodies of water with one shore. There are beasts mightier than he is. He suffers strange sicknesses. He trembles at the sound of thunder, blinded by the lightning, hiding from a sky that grows black and to him, malicious.

Then, once upon a time, that caveman begged for the protection of the Unknown.

In the long dawn of human awakening, in the midst of pestilence, famine, heat or cold, crouched in dens of darkness, the seeds of superstition were sown in the mind of man. The ancients thoroughly believed that everything happened in reference to him. He believed that by his actions, he could excite the anger, or by his worship placate the wrath, of the Unseen. He resorted to flattery and prayer and sacrifice. He put in stone, or carved in wood, his idea of his God(s). Before long, he built an altar, then a hut, a hovel, a shrine and at last, a cathedral for these entities. Before these images he bowed and prayed, and at these shrines, he lavished his wealth, and sought eternal protection for himself and for the ones he loved.

And all throughout this evolution of gods and religions he made others believe as he did. The few took advantage of the ignorant many. They pretended or were deluded to have received messages from the Unknown or perhaps thought his Unknown entity made him some sort of liaison. They stood between the helpless multitude and the Gods. They were the carriers of flags of truce. They would intercede for them and upon the labor of the deceived believers that believed. And the rest of the story is as they say...history.

And there is one fundamental element in the history of the Gods that must not be overlooked, and it is this, people who have challenged the existence of any God at any time have always been ridiculed and castigated.

The man who claimed the stone God cannot help anyone could have been executed, and we read thousands of years later, although hundreds of Gods have been rejected, that those who do not accept the most recent Gods deserve to burn in Hell, and we can predict that these very Gods will not be around in the near future.

Toby Beau · 08-31-2007, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Who thought up God?

I don't know, but I'd sure like to kick his ass.

kennethamy · 08-31-2007, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

Consider the Mog the caveman. He subsists on roots, plants and animals that could be killed with club and stone and yet could kill him equally as well. Countless objects of terror and wonderment surround him. He stands next to rivers with no beginning or end, by bodies of water with one shore. There are beasts mightier than he is. He suffers strange sicknesses. He trembles at the sound of thunder, blinded by the lightning, hiding from a sky that grows black and to him, malicious.

Then, once upon a time, that caveman begged for the protection of the Unknown.

In the long dawn of human awakening, in the midst of pestilence, famine, heat or cold, crouched in dens of darkness, the seeds of superstition were sown in the mind of man. The ancients thoroughly believed that everything happened in reference to him. He believed that by his actions, he could excite the anger, or by his worship placate the wrath, of the Unseen. He resorted to flattery and prayer and sacrifice. He put in stone, or carved in wood, his idea of his God(s). Before long, he built an altar, then a hut, a hovel, a shrine and at last, a cathedral for these entities. Before these images he bowed and prayed, and at these shrines, he lavished his wealth, and sought eternal protection for himself and for the ones he loved.

And all throughout this evolution of gods and religions he made others believe as he did. The few took advantage of the ignorant many. They pretended or were deluded to have received messages from the Unknown or perhaps thought his Unknown entity made him some sort of liaison. They stood between the helpless multitude and the Gods. They were the carriers of flags of truce. They would intercede for them and upon the labor of the deceived believers that believed. And the rest of the story is as they say...history.

And there is one fundamental element in the history of the Gods that must not be overlooked, and it is this, people who have challenged the existence of any God at any time have always been ridiculed and castigated.

The man who claimed the stone God cannot help anyone could have been executed, and we read thousands of years later, although hundreds of Gods have been rejected, that those who do not accept the most recent Gods deserve to burn in Hell, and we can predict that these very Gods will not be around in the near future.

Suppose you are right. What is the significance of that?

Jubal_DiGriz · 08-31-2007, 07:22 PM

Kennethamy- I'm quite amused that you've chosen to respond to the inflammatory posts instead of posts (like mine) giving a level-headed and reasoned answer to the OP. Any reason for your choice?

(Why am I picking on you? Because you seem to be the lone voice of significant dissent on this topic.)

And posters of inflammation- What nasty things people have done in the name of whatever deity was popular at the time doesn't really have to do with the OP. Just sayin'.

Jedi Mind Trick · 08-31-2007, 07:36 PM

We humans tend to give things even inanimate things a personality as if they were living thinking beings. Don't you ever think that your car, or some other favored inanimate object, has a personality? Well, humans have also done this to the universe as a whole. We gave spirits to trees, the sacred rock, mountain, rivers, the sacred pond, the bear, the earth, the sun, the moon... then it occurred to us that there must be some uber-spirit governing all the other spirits. I'm no expert on primates but it seems our social structures made it natural for us to project a great silver back in the sky. However, I think that the earliest supernatural beliefs were of the goddess and not the male deity... so I don't know how to explain that.

Pardon me...

Jedi Mind Trick · 08-31-2007, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternallyI

It seems to me that in light of this mystery, religion does the best in explaining it;

Religion creates mystery, even its explanations lead to deeper mysteries so that in the end nothing is explained and more variables have been added to the original mystery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternallyI

and that Christianity does so quite adequately.

Christianity is all about creating mystery. It explains nothing and is in itself a contradictory mess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternallyI

And if Christianity does have an explanation, why is it discounted as foolishness?

It explains nothing and many things it does offer explanation for are demonstrably untrue, example: Noah's flood, six day creation, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternallyI

Isn't it proper that God should give an explanation of creation to the creatures that are, for some reason, aware that they have a consciousness?

It would be extremely proper for a good god to reveal himself/herself to his/her creation. However, if you are going to point to a musty old book (one out of hundreds) of dubious origin and contradictory nature as the embodiment of that revelation and that to deny it is to be damned then I think your god is a lazy immoral fiend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternallyI

Why is Christianity rejected simply because it does have answers?

That's not why Christianity is rejected and I can't think of anyone who rejects it for that reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternallyI

For my experience has been that if a non-Christian asks for a reason for something that is experienced in the world, or a question concerning the Christian faith, they reject the answer by claiming that the basis(the belief that there is a God) is questionable? Why in the heck would someone even ask the question, if they can't arrive at any understanding apart from the basic belief? And if they do temporarily accept the belief for arguments sake(I'm still suspicious that this is even possible in regards to the question of God), why at the point of explanation do they retreat to the rejection of the idea that they claim to have accepted for the sake of the argument?

Are you saying that atheists shouldn't be able to even ask questions about god's existence if there really is no god? If that is what you are trying to say, and as far as I could make it out, you were, then I'll rest assured that there really are leprechauns, unicorns and mermaids and that there really are aliens shoving probes up people's asses.

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08-31-2007, 06:07 PM	#21
Jubal_DiGriz Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 115	The hunter/gatherer life requires a keen understanding of the cycles and patterns of nature. When will it become cold? How can I kill this dear? What plants are helpful? Without any kind of media (except pictographs and cave paintings), the only way vital information could be transmitted across generations is orally. Often the accuracy of this information was a matter of life and death. It's a noted characteristic of human memory that we recall better by rote if it is placed in a context....mnemonic tools and stories. Instead of trying to memorize the cycles of the moon that would anticipate winter precisely (although some did that, too) most cultures created stories that explained the relationship between seasons and lunar cycles, for instance. By giving meaning and anthropomorphizing natural events, humans gained some understanding of these patters, an ability to react to them, and the ability to pass the knowledge to the next generation. It's easier to relate and think about a being that has human characteristics, so gods and spirits were often cast as a different sort of person, with influences normal people don't have. As the stories passed down through the ages, they adapted to the society as well, often granting legitimacy to the existing power structure (chief's family is blessed by the sun spirit, for instance), and thus serving a growing need for social stability. When people began to settle into cities and populations began to boom, passing on the stories became a full-time job and led to the rise of a professional class whose sole duty was to remember all the things said in the past, often by rote. Their knowledge and aid was returned with gifts (or payment) of food, shelter, and other necessities. As cities and nations continued to grow, these priests received so much tithing that they began to hold wealth beyond their needs. Wealth combined with knowledge equals power, and priests began to become involved in political decisions outside their specialty of retaining knowledge. With greater trade, different cultures began to interact more, both peacefully and violently. Economic and physical conflict placed a greater need for cultures to assert their own identity. Part of this resulted in pantheons, with similar gods being placed in region-specific roles, and then as cultures assimilated each other, new gods were added. Alongside all this was the development of writing, which eased the burden of the priests to remember everything. With more time not being spent in rote memorization, they were able to spend more time in their political roles, and well as refining and expanding the mythology. First Egypt (The Cult of the Sun God), then Persia (Zoroastrianism), then a rising group of tribes that called themselves the Jews developed philosophically a unified idea of the universe, instead of a conflicting horde of forces. This monotheism proved very good at unifying disparate peoples under one religious and political system (see Constantine and Mohammad, as well as Persian history). So that's a brief history of it. Some, maybe most, try to frame the event in philosophic arguments, but archeology, anthropology and history show a strong connection between the kinds of belief in gods and the development of societies. The question "Who thought up God" is about as useful as the question "Who thought up agriculture?".

08-31-2007, 06:23 PM	#23
Headache Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Everywhere Posts: 2,582	Conversation from the stone age: Man1: uhhh sun shining.. uhhh why? Man2: Uhhh God did it! God make it shine? Man1: uhhh what's god? Man1: Uhhh god is... uhhh the one who created the earth and sun and uhhh everything! Man2: <Thinking for a long time....> Rain uuh storm uuhh god too? Man1: Uhhh hmmm uhh yes! God angry! storm! Man2: <thinks again, goes over to his goats, selects one> Here god... take my offer, make no storms! <proceeds to cut off head of goat and sacrifice it to god for good weather> Man1: <Looks on bewildered... thinking..before returning to the flock> Uhh everyone! god angy.. storm... sactifice! see.. Kukka is sacrificing his goat to god so we can have good weather! Now, I say, you too sacrifiec! and so man1 figure out that gods, no matter how invisible, gives him power and status and in stone age times, this is a good thing for survival and for getting women and offspring to provide for you. Religion grows. So, the slick used car sales men with oily hair or preachers as they are called today continue this scam and are getting richer and richer every minute and dumb humans swallow like a good hooker!

08-31-2007, 07:22 PM	#28
Jubal_DiGriz Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 115	Kennethamy- I'm quite amused that you've chosen to respond to the inflammatory posts instead of posts (like mine) giving a level-headed and reasoned answer to the OP. Any reason for your choice? (Why am I picking on you? Because you seem to be the lone voice of significant dissent on this topic.) And posters of inflammation- What nasty things people have done in the name of whatever deity was popular at the time doesn't really have to do with the OP. Just sayin'.

08-31-2007, 07:36 PM	#29
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	We humans tend to give things even inanimate things a personality as if they were living thinking beings. Don't you ever think that your car, or some other favored inanimate object, has a personality? Well, humans have also done this to the universe as a whole. We gave spirits to trees, the sacred rock, mountain, rivers, the sacred pond, the bear, the earth, the sun, the moon... then it occurred to us that there must be some uber-spirit governing all the other spirits. I'm no expert on primates but it seems our social structures made it natural for us to project a great silver back in the sky. However, I think that the earliest supernatural beliefs were of the goddess and not the male deity... so I don't know how to explain that. Pardon me...

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