pz

That evolution occurred is 100% certain, just as certain as the fact that the earth is roughly spherical.

There are disputes about the precise mechanisms behind evolution, just as there are many mysteries and arguments in the field of physics about how gravity works. Because physicists can't explain the source of gravitational forces does not change the fact that they can describe them quantitatively, and that a watermelon pushed off the edge of a roof falls down. Biologists argue about rates and the relationship of lineages and the relative importance of natural selection vs. other forces, but that does not change the simple, obvious and incredibly well-documented fact that life on earth has been and is shaped by a process of natural transformation.

Nameless One

I thought evolution was both a theory and a fact.

Bacteria evolve and become resistant,
that is a fact, not a theory.

Badfish

Ok, so neither one is an exact science, thanks for making that point, I look forward to others take on evolution as asked by my opening post.

I think so far there is more evidence per se for gravity than there is for evolution. Newton concluded gravity is directly related to mass. But thats another topic.

I would like to stick to the topic, and I am sure the majority of other members would too.

To others that are interested, you will find my questions in the first post.

Badfish

Exactly!! Both theory and fact, thank you.

Hallucigenia

The "different theories as to how we actually evolved" are with respect to phylogenetics, not mechanism. You would do well to learn the difference between those two concepts. The former deals with who is related to whom, the latter with how it actually occurs. Establishing the branching patterns of species relationships is part of the former, and each new find adds clarity to those patterns.

That evolution occurs is a fact. How it occurs is still debated, though several mechanisms have been established (e.g., natural selection, sexual selection). Many of the "unknowns" have to do with specific details, not general concepts.

Badfish

As much as you all want to believe evolution is a FACT, it is both GLOBALLY (evolution in it's complete entirety), a theory and a fact, so please I am curious to the overwhelming majorities take on my questions in the first post.

Hallucigenia

If you've been paying attention, you would probably notice that the posts in response to your various incorrect assertions contain many an insight with respect to your first post.

pz

Your initial questions are only interesting in that they are muddled and misconcieved, so there really isn't too much to say about them. There's a whiff of teleology to several of them, with this assumption that evolution is concerned with the path "to become man". You make these vague comments about "molecular structure" that seem to mean something to you, but are noise to me, especially since you then declare that there is no need for "molecular discussion".

You appear to be infatuated with this idea that evolution is a theory, as if that somehow validates your doubts about it. It doesn't. Evolution is a theory not because it is incomplete or a guess or unproven, but because it provides a thorough, powerful explanatory framework for a huge body of observations.

I would say that the key ideas behind evolution are 1) the history of life on earth is one of continuous dynamic change. This is not a matter of belief, it is indisputable fact. 2) The central mechanism of this change is differential reproduction and survival of individuals within populations. This is also an indisputable fact. 3) Evolution works on random, naturally occurring variation; there are no orthogenetic predispositions within populations, no teleological impetus. Random variation seems sufficient, but if anyone wants to hypothesize some kind of predetermined pattern, they'll need to provide a mechanism. None are currently known, and none appear to be necessary.

Starboy

Hi pz,

I agree with you in principle, but in science as with everything else, to use a religious metaphor “the devil is in the details”. Your statement “evolution occurred is 100%” does depend on what you mean by evolution; the same goes for the earth being roughly spherical. Also I would like to point out that there is a fundamental difference between a fact and a theory. Facts are interpreted by theory and theories are informed by facts, but at the end of the day, a theory is only a model of what is observed in the material world. I am sure you would not mistake a picture of a boat for an actual boat; likewise you should not mistake a model of physical reality for physical reality itself. And lastly, as good as any theory is, we do not know what we do not know, never forget that. If science is anything it is an adventure of the mind to discover the unknown.

Starboy

[edited to get the quote right]

[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

Vorkosigan

GTX, a theory in science is an explanatory framework that integrates data, laws, ideas, models and insights in ways that allow scientists to explain the world, predict it, model it and suggest further areas for research. The fact that evolution is a theory means that it is a model of the world and how it works, and thus, in the sense you mean, is a "fact."

Vorkosigan