cjack

A minor quibble...again, the first plane to intercept and inspect Payne's plane was already in the air, and was vectored in. I think whether or not it was armed isn't really an issue.

If there HAD been an F-16 or two already in the air on 9/11, there would have been little they could do (without authorization to shoot) beyond pulling alongside the airliner and giving it a look.

Whether or not they could have shot down the two remaining planes is debateable. By the time we knew what was happening, the passengers on Flight 93 had decided to take matters into their own hands, and Flight 77 was likely already over heavily populated real estate, making a shoot-down rather problematic.


Agreed.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by gqtie
abc link: "First, a fighter jet from Tyndall, Fla., was diverted from a routine training flight to check out the Learjet. Two F-16s from another Florida base then picked up the chase, later handing it over to two Air National Guard F-16s from Oklahoma, which handed it over to two F-16s from Fargo, North Dakota. Those fighters trailed the Learjet until it went down in South Dakota."

It looks to me like it was SOP before 9-11.

No. They had an obviously out of control aircraft and the people best suited to take a look at such a situation would be the military. After all, they are trained to fly with another airplane, civilians aren't. Thus of course the controllers would ring up the closest airbase and ask for help.

"ABCNEWS aviation analyst John Nance told ABCNEWS.com chat participants this afternoon, �There is no set procedure for the Air Force or Navy to scramble an armed fighter for [that purpose] & simply because it�s an unprecedented occurrence.� "

Does this mean that there is, on the other hand, a "set procedure for the Air Force or Navy" to scramble an unarmed fighter? It looks that way to me so far.

Most military planes aren't armed most of the time.

So, even though there is no SET procedure, it could've been ordered.

It takes time for people to decide to do that.

yaktldg

cjack: "the first plane to intercept and inspect Payne's plane was already in the air, and was vectored in."

True. This may have made the response time quicker, but the bigger point is that it was deployed to intercept unlike 9-11.

I assume this plane was on course since it was on autopilot and its transponder was on. Also, it was not one of four planes. The only problem was that the pilots did not respond.

Now, on 9-11 the planes were WAY off course, their transponders were off, their was no communication, and there were a total of 4 planes with the same problem.

" If there HAD been an F-16 or two already in the air on 9/11, there would have been little they could do (without authorization to shoot) beyond pulling alongside the airliner and giving it a look."

It's SOP for a reason, so there must be something of importance they can do like further analyze the situation, or make a recommendation for course of action.

"Whether or not they could have shot down the two remaining planes is debateable. By the time we knew what was happening, the passengers on Flight 93 had decided to take matters into their own hands, and Flight 77 was likely already over heavily populated real estate, making a shoot-down rather problematic."

If SOP isn't followed by sending unarmed jets to further assess the situation, how can it even be debatable whether the planes should be shot down?

loren pechtel: "They had an obviously out of control aircraft and the people best suited to take a look at such a situation would be the military. After all, they are trained to fly with another airplane, civilians aren't. Thus of course the controllers would ring up the closest airbase and ask for help."

That is precisely what should've occured on 9-11.

" Most military planes aren't armed most of the time."

Oh, come on. Are you telling me there aren't any armed jets in DC? Saddam, or "Hitler", better not get word of this.

Guilty for 9-11 Attacks Stories on Andrews AFB and Availability of Fighters Produce Controversy

From dcmilitary.com : "However, as part of its dual mission, the 113th provides capable and ready response forces for the District of Columbia in the event of a natural disaster or civil emergency. Members also assist local and federal law enforcement agencies in combating drug trafficking in the District of Columbia."

" It takes time for people to decide to do that."

Like I said before, that's irrelevant: you can't make that decision without following protocol.

Amen-Moses

If they had flown directly in front of the aircraft the jet wash would have made it impossible for the hijacker to control well enough to hit a specific target, failing that a near supersonic fly past would have a similar but far more spectacular effect. There is a damn good reason they keep the big jets at large clearances you know!

Have you ever seen what micro-shear does to a big jet, well a similar effect occurs in jetwash especially if it is done intentionally.

Actually there is a far easier way of doing it, just fly in front of one wing and destroy it's lift, that way you can force the aircraft to turn and lose height at the same time and possibly aim it away from populated centres.

As a very last-gasp attempt you could just fly through the tail and eject at the same time, hopefully you will survive the collision (the tail is mostly thin ally and fresh air anyhow) and bring down the jet. Any military pilot will do that if ordered to.

Amen-Moses

cjack

I'm assuming you mean that these could be carried out IF the pilots were given authorization to bring down the planes?

That's one of the issues here. As I mentioned earlier, it wasn't until after the 2nd plane hit the WTC that anyone realized the full extent of what was happening that day. Authorization to intercept and shoot down a civilian airliner would have likely come too late to make a difference.

Me and Me

The U.S. has radar over the white house which is a No Fly Zone in which planes have to get permission every time they fly over it. So the plane was on radar before it even passed over the White House heading toward that Pentagon.

And The U.S. Air Force trains for a situation like this in drills all the time. Their always is tight security around the white house.

Al-Quaida had been penetrated and followed and been spied upon for some years now also. All the surrounding intellegince services know this, especiallly the Pakistan Intelligent services.

Jimmy Higgins

Yeah thats it! And Air Force One was target too!

The pilot of the plane made precision moves. If he wanted to hit the White House, he would have. The 4th plane was either the White House or Capitol Building.

Jimmy Higgins

Here is the absolute best in reviewing pretty much everything on the day of September 11, 2001. It has virtually every fact linked to AP, NYT, BBC, etc... news sources. While their opinion may be different that yours, the display of the events seems to be quite accurate.
9-11 Timeline: Sept. 11, minute-by-minute

Iamthebeerking

[Unnecessary diatribe removed - 99%]

Happy Wonderer

Has anyone considered that the military jet may have just been the closest to intercept? I know that in some incidents (such as the Alaska crash) they have requested civilian airliners to go over and take a look at a plane that goes off screen. If there had been a small civilian jet in the area they might have had it fly by Payne's plane close enough to see if they could get any response from it (wing waggle, HELP pasted on the cockpit, etc.) That would at least let them know if there were live people aboard.

I don't think that the incident shows anything about a global procedure for intercepting jets that go off screen or otherwise weird.


HW