Freethought & Rationalism Archive

keyser_soze · 03-20-2003, 03:56 AM

BTW, if you'll tell us which numbers are right, I will create a new nick just to give you the correct number and you shall follow my will! World domination here I come!

Baloo · 03-20-2003, 09:30 AM

xian,
This program is for people who believe I would have great gain if a correct number is revealed. They are free to submit their numbers. You are not in this camp, obviously, and I respect your decision to not submit a number. Why is it that my devoutly christian ex-g/f, and two devoutly xtian good friends, and several devoutly christian members of this board have all attempted to channel a guess from God to me?

Again, all I've done here is offered a straight-forward, in-your-face answer to those who ask the question "What would it take for you to rethink your atheism"? You are apparently not the type to ask this question, and I respect that. Please take my word for it though: there are many, many Christians who ask the question quite regularly (and to many of them, my response is sufficient). My ex-g/f, for instance, was upset that her number didn't work - but insisted that I never erase the progam, for surely, at some point in my life (she believes), the 32 numbers will come.

In other words, even the believers in my life win: they can always have hope that someday, somehow, those 32 numbers will appear to me. At the very least, they know my answer to "will you ever again try to believe" is not an unconditional "no".

keyer: well, the program actually checks for a higher level of omniscience than that. The random number is generated anew each test. The way it works: I type a seed, press a button, random number is generated (based on entered seed - and a couple other things), I am prompted for a "guess", guess is checked. So, the deity would actually have to know the number that would be generated at the precise moment I pushed the "Run" button, which will be different with each trial.

xian · 03-20-2003, 10:08 AM

well don't get me wrong, Baloo. ON some levels I admire that you have indeed left an "open door" for God. Though I am wondering if you have concluded already that this same God you left a door open to, is also the same God you have concluded is a tyrant. Is this true or false?

If you have concluded that this God is cruel due to the problem of evil, then does that not make this whole "open door" a front to the real issue- that the door is indeed closed?

I am not trying to accuse you of anything, you seem to be genuine and fascinating at the least. I have talked with many, MANY atheists over the years, and have never encountered something like this.

Indeed, it caught me off guard a bit.

keyser_soze · 03-20-2003, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baloo
xian,
This program is for people who believe I would have great gain if a correct number is revealed. They are free to submit their numbers. You are not in this camp, obviously, and I respect your decision to not submit a number. Why is it that my devoutly christian ex-g/f, and two devoutly xtian good friends, and several devoutly christian members of this board have all attempted to channel a guess from God to me?

Again, all I've done here is offered a straight-forward, in-your-face answer to those who ask the question "What would it take for you to rethink your atheism"? You are apparently not the type to ask this question, and I respect that. Please take my word for it though: there are many, many Christians who ask the question quite regularly (and to many of them, my response is sufficient). My ex-g/f, for instance, was upset that her number didn't work - but insisted that I never erase the progam, for surely, at some point in my life (she believes), the 32 numbers will come.

In other words, even the believers in my life win: they can always have hope that someday, somehow, those 32 numbers will appear to me. At the very least, they know my answer to "will you ever again try to believe" is not an unconditional "no".

keyer: well, the program actually checks for a higher level of omniscience than that. The random number is generated anew each test. The way it works: I type a seed, press a button, random number is generated (based on entered seed - and a couple other things), I am prompted for a "guess", guess is checked. So, the deity would actually have to know the number that would be generated at the precise moment I pushed the "Run" button, which will be different with each trial.

My bad, I probably read it at 2 in the morning, and didn't catch the number generator thing...Can I try again since I was struck with stupid the first time? I can feel his presence in me, I just know this one will be the charm. Wait...No, it was a burp. Sorry about that.

keyser_soze · 03-20-2003, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xian
well don't get me wrong, Baloo. ON some levels I admire that you have indeed left an "open door" for God. Though I am wondering if you have concluded already that this same God you left a door open to, is also the same God you have concluded is a tyrant. Is this true or false?

If you have concluded that this God is cruel due to the problem of evil, then does that not make this whole "open door" a front to the real issue- that the door is indeed closed?

I am not trying to accuse you of anything, you seem to be genuine and fascinating at the least. I have talked with many, MANY atheists over the years, and have never encountered something like this.

Indeed, it caught me off guard a bit.

But you are not seeing it from the would-be slave. If someone guesses a randomly generated 32 digit number(odds being astronomical) then obviously this equals a proof to him, and honestly, I would be swayed myself given the odds. So if he accepts that this master of the universe does indeed exist, then despite the fact that he is a despotic, bi-polar, into-bondage-and-S&M, nutjob....he is his master. In such a case, you must serve that which is stronger than you, no matter the morality of it. If you had served under the Khan voluntarily, you would have done so..despite personal feelings on the matter. You still haven't figured out what an atheist is have you? We simply use our common sense, and logic to realize that there is NO proof for your heavenly creator. But we are not stupid. Proof is proof. For him this is proof. Some of us require a bit more, but that is admittedly a doozy. What proof would it take for you to disbelieve?

[deleted what was an admitted insult]

xian · 03-20-2003, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by keyser_soze
But you are not seeing it from the would-be slave. If someone guesses a randomly generated 32 digit number(odds being astronomical) then obviously this equals a proof to him, and honestly, I would be swayed myself given the odds. So if he accepts that this master of the universe does indeed exist, then despite the fact that he is a despotic, bi-polar, into-bondage-and-S&M, nutjob....he is his master. In such a case, you must serve that which is stronger than you, no matter the morality of it. If you had served under the Khan voluntarily, you would have done so..despite personal feelings on the matter. You still haven't figured out what an atheist is have you? We simply use our common sense, and logic to realize that there is NO proof for your heavenly creator. But we are not stupid. Proof is proof. For him this is proof. Some of us require a bit more, but that is admittedly a doozy. What proof would it take for you to disbelieve?

[deleted what was an admitted insult]

i believe that many atheists would not serve a being that was despotic, bi-polar, into-bondage-and-S&M, nutjob, even if it was his master. Would you not resist such servitude? I have spoken with many atheists who have had an opinion to the effect of:

"Even if your God exists, I would never serve him. I would never submit to Him. He will have to force me, because so long as I have a free will, I will choose otherwise"

and even some atheists go so far as to say:
"even if your God exists, I would not serve him. I prefer hell before bending my knees to your God"

I do not think the slave argument is a good argument. People resist oppressive slavery- even when their masters obviously exist. But Baloo is proposing willing servitude with promises to be glad and happy about it. Even the 'best slave' STILL will maintain his mind...even though his body may serve, his mind will willingly rebel.
so I maintain my original postulation. if Baloo has concluded a cruel God, I totally fail to see how his test is genuine. In my opinion, the door is already shut and his god-check is a front for something already determined. And if God exists, maybe this is why he never gets his answer. WHy would God answer someone who already concluded He was cruel? I see no logical reason why God would communicate with Baloo under this pretext.

A more valid check to me would be for Baloo to see God not as a cruel being, but in a different light, and do so geninuely. Under this context, perhaps God would answer himself to Baloo. That, is, in fact, the exact context that all tests in the Bible occurred under in which God honored.

but I will let Baloo speak for himself. regardless, I respect his posts, as I do believe there is sincereity in what I read from him.

Dargo · 03-20-2003, 12:36 PM

If I had reason to believe a sadistic god existed who would punish me for eternity for disobedience, I would worship him regardless of my feelings. I am a coward. If some human tyrant were to threaten me with torture unless I kneeled before him, I would do the same. However, I would have no illusions about that tyrant being a good leader or being worthy of my worship. Humans who crave worship are the ones least deserving of it. Decent people don't need followers groveling at their feet.

Imagine if some homeless guy claimed to be the emperor of planet Xenu, and demanded our service. No one would worry about this because he sounded so ridiculous. We don't find Christian or Muslim threats of eternal damnation any more likely than a crazy guy threatening people with imprisonment in his dungeons on Xenu.

Curt Epithet · 03-20-2003, 12:37 PM

00000000000000000000000000000001 ?

xian · 03-20-2003, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dargo
If I had reason to believe a sadistic god existed who would punish me for eternity for disobedience, I would worship him regardless of my feelings. I am a coward. If some human tyrant were to threaten me with torture unless I kneeled before him, I would do the same. However, I would have no illusions about that tyrant being a good leader or being worthy of my worship. Humans who crave worship are the ones least deserving of it. Decent people don't need followers groveling at their feet.

Imagine if some homeless guy claimed to be the emperor of planet Xenu, and demanded our service. No one would worry about this because he sounded so ridiculous. We don't find Christian or Muslim threats of eternal damnation any more likely than a crazy guy threatening people with imprisonment in his dungeons on Xenu.

well I agree that the slave master would have your body and your choices...but not your mental devotion.

Again, Baloo is promising mental devotion...or at minimum promising to do his best to be mentally devoted. This is, of course, highly unlikely in reality. No slave is mentally devoted to a barbaric master. Sure he may obey his master's every command, but his mind will still be free.

Its like what they taught me in the military regarding those who are above you in the chain of command: you must respect the rank, but you do not have to respect the man.

i truly believe Baloo's Test (lol, a nice official name. he he. It will go down with Pascal's Wager. We have Baloo's Test)...

I believe Baloo's Test is, at its core, disengenuious. Thus, if God does exist, no response is to be expected. (not to say one wont come IF God exists, but the test is not genuine enough to think that one should come)

keyser_soze · 03-20-2003, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xian
i believe that many atheists would not serve a being that was despotic, bi-polar, into-bondage-and-S&M, nutjob, even if it was his master. Would you not resist such servitude?
I am not leaving the door open, no I will not serve such a one...but those who would, will. But you also have to take into account that in all probability, if there is a god, it's not the one in your bible. Such a pathetic, and obviously inadequate god could not possibly be the architect behind the universe's creation. To me it's all mythology.

I have spoken with many atheists who have had an opinion to the effect of:

"Even if your God exists, I would never serve him. I would never submit to Him. He will have to force me, because so long as I have a free will, I will choose otherwise"

and even some atheists go so far as to say:
"even if your God exists, I would not serve him. I prefer hell before bending my knees to your God"

If your god is THE god, I can't say exactly what I would do. Luckily, I will not have to find out. I am a weak atheist

I do not think the slave argument is a good argument. People resist oppressive slavery- even when their masters obviously exist. But you wish to follow such a master! You know the bible as well as any of us, but you close your eyes to the truth But Baloo is proposing willing servitude with promises to be glad and happy about it. Even the 'best slave' STILL will maintain his mind...even though his body may serve, his mind will willingly rebel. Is that what your reaction is to be. Yes, yes, I know, you're not a slave, your just a willing supplicant at the foot of your god-figure...But do you not call yourselve's SERVANT. Do you not plan to serve, indeed, currently try to serve, the master of the bible? Case you didn't know it....He's not that nice of a guy. I'm sure you will argue that either he is above our judgement, or that he is acting in our "best interest" in some manner that we simply CANNOT understand as the little peons we are....but that's bs and you know it deep down.
so I maintain my original postulation. if Baloo has concluded a cruel God, I totally fail to see how his test is genuine. In my opinion, the door is already shut and his god-check is a front for something already determined. And if God exists, maybe this is why he never gets his answer. WHy would God answer someone who already concluded He was cruel? I see no logical reason why God would communicate with Baloo under this pretext. Perhaps given proof of his existance, he will become a willing slave. After all, wouldn't that be his road to damascus? Or do you think it impossible that people could convert to EVIL? Don't tell me you believe this way.

A more valid check to me would be for Baloo to see God not as a cruel being, but in a different light, and do so geninuely. Under this context, perhaps God would answer himself to Baloo. That, is, in fact, the exact context that all tests in the Bible occurred under in which God honored.

but I will let Baloo speak for himself. regardless, I respect his posts, as I do believe there is sincereity in what I read from him.

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03-20-2003, 03:56 AM	#131
keyser_soze Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: god's judge (pariah) Posts: 1,281	BTW, if you'll tell us which numbers are right, I will create a new nick just to give you the correct number and you shall follow my will! World domination here I come!

03-20-2003, 09:30 AM	#132
Baloo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 417	xian, This program is for people who believe I would have great gain if a correct number is revealed. They are free to submit their numbers. You are not in this camp, obviously, and I respect your decision to not submit a number. Why is it that my devoutly christian ex-g/f, and two devoutly xtian good friends, and several devoutly christian members of this board have all attempted to channel a guess from God to me? Again, all I've done here is offered a straight-forward, in-your-face answer to those who ask the question "What would it take for you to rethink your atheism"? You are apparently not the type to ask this question, and I respect that. Please take my word for it though: there are many, many Christians who ask the question quite regularly (and to many of them, my response is sufficient). My ex-g/f, for instance, was upset that her number didn't work - but insisted that I never erase the progam, for surely, at some point in my life (she believes), the 32 numbers will come. In other words, even the believers in my life win: they can always have hope that someday, somehow, those 32 numbers will appear to me. At the very least, they know my answer to "will you ever again try to believe" is not an unconditional "no". keyer: well, the program actually checks for a higher level of omniscience than that. The random number is generated anew each test. The way it works: I type a seed, press a button, random number is generated (based on entered seed - and a couple other things), I am prompted for a "guess", guess is checked. So, the deity would actually have to know the number that would be generated at the precise moment I pushed the "Run" button, which will be different with each trial.

03-20-2003, 10:08 AM	#133
xian Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 378	well don't get me wrong, Baloo. ON some levels I admire that you have indeed left an "open door" for God. Though I am wondering if you have concluded already that this same God you left a door open to, is also the same God you have concluded is a tyrant. Is this true or false? If you have concluded that this God is cruel due to the problem of evil, then does that not make this whole "open door" a front to the real issue- that the door is indeed closed? I am not trying to accuse you of anything, you seem to be genuine and fascinating at the least. I have talked with many, MANY atheists over the years, and have never encountered something like this. Indeed, it caught me off guard a bit.

03-20-2003, 12:36 PM	#137
Dargo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 713	If I had reason to believe a sadistic god existed who would punish me for eternity for disobedience, I would worship him regardless of my feelings. I am a coward. If some human tyrant were to threaten me with torture unless I kneeled before him, I would do the same. However, I would have no illusions about that tyrant being a good leader or being worthy of my worship. Humans who crave worship are the ones least deserving of it. Decent people don't need followers groveling at their feet. Imagine if some homeless guy claimed to be the emperor of planet Xenu, and demanded our service. No one would worry about this because he sounded so ridiculous. We don't find Christian or Muslim threats of eternal damnation any more likely than a crazy guy threatening people with imprisonment in his dungeons on Xenu.

03-20-2003, 12:37 PM	#138
Curt Epithet Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 65	00000000000000000000000000000001 ?

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