scigirl

Isn't it possible to respect some of the teachings of Jesus without accepting the major tenets of Christianity (that you NEED to believe in him to get into heaven, and all that other nonsense)?

I think Jesus had a lot of great things to say, but he was misinterpreted and misquoted by the early christians (cough *paul* cough).

Jefferson and his colleagues were very well-read, and it seems to me they respected the ideas of fellow humans like Jesus, Locke, etc. Yet they were very skeptical and critical of organized religions based on the teachings of any one human.

scigirl

hezekiah jones

Nevertheless, I agree with the vast majority of the decisions ...

Then what is the problem? Isn't that all that counts?

scigirl

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Why do you even need schools and teachers then? why not just pray for her?

scigirl

Radorth

No it isn't all that counts when secular activists and secular "humanists" warp the wisdom of the Founders, fail to communicate their fears and their remedies, denigrate our Christian heritage and the contributions of Christians, and effectively estop any remedies but their own for bad and intolerant behavior.

How about we have ethics classes for middle-schoolers, using the "most sublime" system of morals in history? Would that be OK?

No? Why not? Does it violate Jefferson's "wall" or not?

Rad

Butters

LOL! From the king of chopped up, out of context, totally misleading quotes!
However, you do have the right to ask for original sources.


Where the hell did you go to school. I left school thinking the founding fathers were all devout Christian men!

I disagree. What in particular do you think needs to be done to improve the L.A. public school system?


scigirl,
What great teachings of Jesus are you reffering to?

Rad,
What does this "most sublime system of morals say, that a Humanist system doesn't? Give me a few examples of the moral teaching of Jesus that you find lacking in the education of children.

Yellum Notnef

A Humanist system lacks supernatural threats of eternal torture for not behaving yourself and the "eye in the sky" overlord who is watching your every move waiting to deliver that torture.

scigirl

Radorth,

You are aware that the founding fathers were angry at Britian, in part, because of religious persecution? You have actually read the 1st amendment, and understand why it exists?

On the contrary - it appears we actually bothered to read their actual reports instead of listening to Christian propaganda about it.

Secular humanists don't need to do this - the Christians are capable of doing that on their own.

Oh you mean the True Christians (TM) that didn't use the Bible to support slavery, or the oppression of women, or the current oppression of homosexuals and atheists and people who watch Harry Potter.
Nice strawman. We point out, correctly, that the founding fathers weren't as "christian" as you would like to believe. Then you claim we are trying to take morality out of school.

If Jefferson et al can write a great constitution without being fundie Christians (which they did), then clearly we can create and organize schools that espouse ethics AND education without needing religious dogma as well. The fact that religious schools are successful does not prove you need religion to be successful. I for one would like to see statistics on 1) are students who attend religious schools prepared for college, especially in sciences? and 2) are they any more "moral" than the evil secular kiddies?

Data and statistics would go a long way to back up your claims.

scigirl

Buffman

Radorth

Please deal with the content of the posts and not your flights of fancy regarding the intent of the person making them. One either gets a quote right or they don't. Your quotes needed correction. Don't blame anyone else for your personal lack of perseverence and accuracy in getting them right the first time. If you don't have the time or inclination to get the most accurate one available, then don't post them and attempt to build a case from them. You only expose yourself, and your personal faith beliefs, to further criticism.

You made the original posts as support for your opening remarks and allegations. All I did was place your posts in their original context...and when I couldn't do that, I said so.

I have no use for any beliefs structured on superstitions, myths, fables, fear or emotional appeal. That does not mean that I do not recognize the importance of ethical and moral standards of human social conduct. Every faith belief that has ever been created from the mind of humankind has established some manner of ethical and moral code to be used in social interaction. You contend that only Christianity offers the correct one. That is your belief, but not mine.

In order to validate your contentions, and for you to lead an ethical and moral life, you must believe that there is some sort of super entity controlling the entire universe and all that exists within it. You must believe that you have a spiritual self that will live forever in some form of afterlife at the whim of this supernatural entity. (That differs not one whit from what the leaders of the Taliban claim.) When challenged to provide any verifiable evidence for these beliefs, you have none save a book that you believe contains the very words of this super entity. Whereas I believe that all religious books were created from the minds of men just as the U.S. Constitution was created from the minds of men. None are perfect. They are guides that have attempted to record the wisdom of all those who have gone before in a manner that is useful and meaningful to those that exist today.

The problem I see with your book is that it is 2000+ years old and immutable. It can not change without undermining your entire belief system. The U.S. Constitution can, and has, changed with the progress of humankind as we seek a more ethical amd moral form of government for American society.

Unfortunately, America has never been a perfect ethical and moral society regardless of the fact that it has been populated and controlled by those professing to be Christians. However, rather than asking themselves why their belief system has failed to achieve their desired ends, a small contingent of these so-called Christians have attempted to blame the(ir) failure on external factors. Fortunately our Constitution has provided a "wall" between the failures of the Christian faith belief system and the progress of the pluralistic American society...until now.

Suddenly the believers in inerrant biblical scripture have gained the power and means to destroy the Constitutional protections of the past...in order to bring about the so-called greater glory of their supernatural gods.

All this business about who said what and why has little to do with the basic issue. What verifiable evidence is there for a belief in a supernatural world? Church(Religion)-State(Government)separation serves as the only protection humankind has ever had from the darkness of the supernatural past and the light of modern knowledge and the advancement toward a more ethical and moral world in which humanity can exist in harmony and prosper. That is why I seek the most accurate information I can find. Not because I am anti-Christian. I am pro-accurate knowledge and understanding of the universe and our place in it. Religious beliefs and actions are based on faith, not facts.

Therefore, whenever folks, religious or non-religious, post information which is of questionable accuracy, I will do my best to offer that information which is more accurate. If you can not handle that, then you need to look within yourself to understand why you can not.

scigirl

I think Toto made an excellent point here:

So out with it Radorth - let's here some specifics please instead of "wahh wahh wahh atheists are out to get us!"

scigirl

Toto

Rad - what objections do I have to the moral teachings of Jesus? I think that they are worth studying, but they are not well defined or unique, and that other moral systems (Buddhist, humanist, etc.) are more useful for this world.

But do you want the government to require those teachings, and if so, which Christian sect gets to determine the true teachings of Jesus?

Do you really want the LA public schools to teach:

- pacifism? (they are required by the new Homeland Security legislation to give names and birthdays of all male students to the military recruiters. I guess that would have to go.)

- no need to work or worry, because God will provide?

And why Jesus and not the Talmud, or Confucianism, or Taoism? or &lt;shudder&gt; Scientology? What if the LA public schools chose the wrong religion to base its ethics on? (The Book of Common Prayer?)

See how this works? One little crack in the wall of separation, and you slide down that slippery slope to violating some one's freedom of conscience.