Derec

Wait a moment. Why not say the samne thing to women? Why should women have more reproductive and parental rights than men? Aren't we supposed to be equal?

UMoC

Buddrow_Wilson

I don't understand why you read that into this, but I can assure you that I do not subscribe to such myths. If anything I believe the opposite, although I know both men and women basically equally share the same weaknesses.

I'll share a little personal history: My mother had three children. Each of us have different fathers. My mother has gone through much difficulty attempting to extract child support from my 2 brothers' fathers (I never met my own father, and my mother never attempted to locate him) with very little to show from it. In my opinion, all the effort was wasted, and these men were not good role models for my brothers. They did not and still do not show any desire to be a part of their lives. From my point of view the legislation had no real effect here. All of the money that has been collected from them went to pay the state's legal fees!!

My opinion is that if the man doesn't want anything to do with the child, well then screw him, better off forgetting he ever existed.

And I would still tell any young woman to be careful because this may be what they run into if they become pregnant.

Derec

Paying attention to someone elses viewpoint should not affect what rights they have.
Men should both have more reproductive rights and parental rights, as a particular man choses.
In short, men should get the same rights as women have.

And there should be 0% liability for children one did not father or for cases where the man was only a sperm donor.

UMoC

lunachick

Gosh! It's a bloody cake walk then, isn't it?

Really? Doesn't sound like it. Sounds to me like you want to punish the whore and her bastard child. Would you like some salt and vinegar to go with that chip?

lunachick

Yes, they are both cases where the law needs amending.

Feather

That's rather the point, though. It seems that, legally speaking, the pendulum has swung clear to the other side, right past the middle ground. Whereas before abortion was illegal, and women were forced to bear a far greater burden in the child rearing process, now it is the other way around. If a man fathers a child he's screwed (ahahaha) for the most part, even if he desires an abortion or to place the child up for adoption. If he desires either that's no more or less an abdication of responsibility than the woman who would foricbly have a child raised by a spiteful, bitter father, don't you think?

The point isn't to give a free pass to men to father children whenever they want and then leave.

Allow me to elaborate my position a little: I think any law allowing a man to waive all parental rights permanently should include provisions for 'default denial' of such a waiver, for example in the case of marriage (i.e. marriage implies a life-long commitment, unless otherwise stated in some other related contract, etc. etc., and so implies consent to do the things that "normally" come with marriage--e.g. have a kid.)

There shouldn't be a free pass for either party, really. Unfortunately, in the modern climate, the deck of cards is stacked overwhelmingly in favor of women.

Derec

Don't be silly. Nobody is saying that. We are only saying that currently men have a lesser say. And that should change. Both parties should have equal rights and responsibilities towards that child. If a woman can absolve herself from responsibility than the man should be able to do so. Also men that wnat the custody of the child should have the same access to it as women, including child support from the woman.

UMoC

lunachick

I do say the same thing to women. Double the prevention - no need for the cure.

But, given that this is not a perfect world peopled with perfect sexually abstinent and/or responsible sober people, the man must also cover his ass, or suffer the consequences, also.

Derec

Well talk about being misunderstood. I don't want to punish anybody. But let's say a woman gets pregnant. She can give the kid up for adoption. She then has no further responsibility towards the child.

Why coudln't the man decide the same?

I am not for "punishing the whore", I am for equal rights and responsibilities.

UMoC

lunachick

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Strongly.

I've now run out of time and energy to engage in this any further today - but I'll get back to it.

Ciao for now.