Freethought & Rationalism Archive

xeren · 08-03-2002, 02:05 PM

Owleye, you wrote:

Quote:

In heaven, presumably, there are no desires and fears to overcome -- and everything follows from perfect knowledge (i.e., enlightenment) of what is in our best interest. Choice is still present, but it is relieved of its need to do battle with evil.

But that is precicely my point, why didn'tgod simply create a world where "Choice is still present, but it is relieved of its need to do battle with evil"? People could still freely choose whether or not to worship god (which is why theists say that god values freewill over stopping all evil), but the evils of the world would all disappear. No more rape! No more murder!

My point is: if god could have done on earth what he's presumably doing with heaven, then he is unnecessarily putting evil into our world.

Maybe i'm missing something here, anyone agree or disagree with my conclusion?

One-eyed Jack · 08-03-2002, 05:59 PM

I agree with your analysis, xeren. I wouldn't limit the case to Heaven, though; Heaven provides only one example of ways that God could limit evil and still provide freewill to humans. For example, God could have created mankind with strong moral understanding and then demonstrated evil in the animal world. This avoids human suffering and allows humans with their superior moral understanding to perceive and avoid evil.

If a man can imagine it, then the Christian God could have done it, I say.

08-03-2002, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xeren:
<strong>
And the idea is that Why couldn't god create a world where we all have free will, and freely only choose good? After all (and this is where i may be mistaken and would love some comments regarding this) what is heaven? Isn't that a place where everone still has free will, and FREELY chooses good? If I believed in heaven but there was no free will there, i certainly wouldn't want to go.

thanks</strong>

God did create a world in which we can have a free will because we were all created in the image and likeness of God. The only reason we do not have a free will is beause we also wanted to be like god to consciously know the difference between good and evil. This second identity (called "like god") is really the only reason why we do not have a free will and is also the only reason why there is good and evil (all that which is created is good).

Heaven is a state of mind wherein "like god" has been placed subservient to "God" (God is subconscious and like god is conscious mind).

From heaven the world is determinsitic and the choices people make there (in the Cave) are not of their own free will. So therefore, from heaven's perspective good and evil do not exist ("release the captives and set the prisoners free").

Toad Master · 08-03-2002, 10:04 PM

Quote:
xeren:
"And the idea is that Why couldn't god create a world where we all have free will, and freely only choose good? After all (and this is where i may be mistaken and would love some comments regarding this) what is heaven? Isn't that a place where everone still has free will, and FREELY chooses good? If I believed in heaven but there was no free will there, i certainly wouldn't want to go."

Exactly. God Himself is supposed to have free-will yet is incapable of choosing to do evil. Presumably, this is because God is all good. So why could not God have created man all good? He's supposed to be all powerful, ain't He?

-Toad Master

excreationist · 08-04-2002, 12:27 AM

BTW, free-will does exist in Heaven... and this can result in temporary trouble in Heaven...

e.g.
Revelation 12:7-9 - "Then there was war in heaven. Michael and the angels under his command fought the dragon and his angels. And the dragon lost the battle and was forced out of heaven. This great dragon - the ancient serpent called the Devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world - was thrown down to the earth with all his angels."

Jamie_L · 08-05-2002, 04:56 AM

I have never known anyone who drank gasoline. I'm sure it happens occasionally, because people aren't that smart and sometimes get mentally ill. But almost universally, no one drinks gasoline.

Does that mean we have no free will to drink gasoline?

Jamie

Grumpy · 08-05-2002, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xeren:
...if god could have done on earth what he's presumably doing with heaven, then he is unnecessarily putting evil into our world.

To restate your point: if God is omnipotent, then whatever he wants, he gets. Conversely, whatever is in the world must be what God wants. Therefore, where evil exists, it is because God wants it there.

The usual dodge to this (from Thomas Aquinas, IIRC) is that evil is not a proactive force, but occurs in the "shadow" areas absent God's presence. But... God is omnipresent, Tom! And omnipotent; it is not beyond God's power to fill the world with good and allow no opportunity for evil.

Even human actions can still be "free" while God protects people from suffering. He may not wish to interfere with a mugger's desire to rob, but God can cause the mugger's doorknob to jam such that he is unable to leave his house. Yet we have muggers who continue to inflict suffering on others. From this I conclude that God wants the victims to suffer. But how could an benevolent entity present at the scene of a crime fail to prevent it, given the power to do so?

Either God is not present, not powerful, or not benevolent. Any of these make such an entity not-God, or at least not worth worshipping.

tronvillain · 08-05-2002, 12:31 PM

Jamie_L:

Quote:

I have never known anyone who drank gasoline. I'm sure it happens occasionally, because people aren't that smart and sometimes get mentally ill. But almost universally, no one drinks gasoline.

Does that mean we have no free will to drink gasoline?

Precisely. Why aren't murder and rape like drinking gasoline?

Dr S · 08-05-2002, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tronvillain:
<strong>As far as I can recall, it was "knowledge of good and evil" and not "free will" that came from eating the forbidden fruit. I am not sure that the Old Testament even mentions anything about "free will." </strong>

Sure it is, and no it doesn't.
You cannot make an informed choice if you don't know the difference between right and wrong.
Note that in today's courtroom to be convicted of a crime a person must be able to know the difference.
In Gen:1 Adam and Eve-the second they had the knowledge-regretted the choice that they made. Before they ate they had no idea they were doing wrong because they had no idea what wrong was.
Similar to "Catch 22" this would have been called "Catch 1"
In earlier (pre-Jewish) versions of the same story there are two snakes (caduceus) in the garden and the people were created to slave in the garden so that the gods could enjoy themselves. The female snake demanded that the male save the people and he told them that there were 2 trees. One of eternal life and one of the knowledge of culture (not good and evil). In this nobel tale the people chose knowledge and freedom over slavery and eternal life.

Same story, completely different meaning.

Keith Russell · 08-06-2002, 08:34 AM

Greetings:

In Genesis Chapter Two, Eve chooses to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (and thus 'sin') before she actually eats of the fruit. Thus, the capacity to choose to 'sin' existed in human beings (at least, according to Genesis) before they actually ate the fruit.

If God made us, God made us able to sin, able to choose 'evil', without having to first eat of the fruit of the Tree.

Second, we cannot be 'free' to choose to engage in behaviours that aren't avaiable to us.

We are not 'free' to choose to be sub-atomic in size, we are not 'free' to have green skin, breathe water, or live in space without environment suits.

If existence was created by God, then the options available for us to freely choose, were likewise created by God. So, if we are able to freely choose evil, whatever evil options are open to be chosen, were first made available--were first created--by God.

Lastly, omniscience trumps free will. You cannot have an omniscient God, and a humankind possessed of free will.

You have to 'choose' one or the other...

Keith Russell.

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08-03-2002, 05:59 PM	#12
One-eyed Jack Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 46	I agree with your analysis, xeren. I wouldn't limit the case to Heaven, though; Heaven provides only one example of ways that God could limit evil and still provide freewill to humans. For example, God could have created mankind with strong moral understanding and then demonstrated evil in the animal world. This avoids human suffering and allows humans with their superior moral understanding to perceive and avoid evil. If a man can imagine it, then the Christian God could have done it, I say.

08-03-2002, 10:04 PM	#14
Toad Master Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: North of Los Angeles Posts: 29	Quote: xeren: "And the idea is that Why couldn't god create a world where we all have free will, and freely only choose good? After all (and this is where i may be mistaken and would love some comments regarding this) what is heaven? Isn't that a place where everone still has free will, and FREELY chooses good? If I believed in heaven but there was no free will there, i certainly wouldn't want to go." Exactly. God Himself is supposed to have free-will yet is incapable of choosing to do evil. Presumably, this is because God is all good. So why could not God have created man all good? He's supposed to be all powerful, ain't He? -Toad Master

08-04-2002, 12:27 AM	#15
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	BTW, free-will does exist in Heaven... and this can result in temporary trouble in Heaven... e.g. Revelation 12:7-9 - "Then there was war in heaven. Michael and the angels under his command fought the dragon and his angels. And the dragon lost the battle and was forced out of heaven. This great dragon - the ancient serpent called the Devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world - was thrown down to the earth with all his angels."

08-05-2002, 04:56 AM	#16
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	I have never known anyone who drank gasoline. I'm sure it happens occasionally, because people aren't that smart and sometimes get mentally ill. But almost universally, no one drinks gasoline. Does that mean we have no free will to drink gasoline? Jamie

08-06-2002, 08:34 AM	#20
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: In Genesis Chapter Two, Eve chooses to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (and thus 'sin') before she actually eats of the fruit. Thus, the capacity to choose to 'sin' existed in human beings (at least, according to Genesis) before they actually ate the fruit. If God made us, God made us able to sin, able to choose 'evil', without having to first eat of the fruit of the Tree. Second, we cannot be 'free' to choose to engage in behaviours that aren't avaiable to us. We are not 'free' to choose to be sub-atomic in size, we are not 'free' to have green skin, breathe water, or live in space without environment suits. If existence was created by God, then the options available for us to freely choose, were likewise created by God. So, if we are able to freely choose evil, whatever evil options are open to be chosen, were first made available--were first created--by God. Lastly, omniscience trumps free will. You cannot have an omniscient God, and a humankind possessed of free will. You have to 'choose' one or the other... Keith Russell.

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