sullster

Enough already of the Cold War space race! If space is so darn important, let it be funded by private industry.

A lunar colony would be a cool thing to read about but don't tax me to pay for it. I don't want to be forced to pay for a science project for a bunch of extreme athletes.

I am convinced that the desire for space travel is the desire for a non-religious "heaven".
It is human all too human a desire.

We are travelling in space now on a wonderous planet and we don't need to spend billions to create a miserable outpost on another rock.

Liquidrage

You have to be joking? No?
Wow!

Colonization has nothing to do with religion.
Hell, most astronauts have been Christians and I see nothing changing this.

It doesn't matter what your faith is.
If life is worth living we should put it everywhere we can.

Your tax money is already being spent to put people in space. The difference is the best place they have to go as of now is the ISS.

Also, don't forget that the more *rocks* with humanity on it, the better the odds for humanities long term survival without technological regression.
Imagine one of the doomsday scenarios.
Asteroid/Comet impacts and giant caldera erruptions to name but a few.

sullster

Liquidrage,
You don't understand my meaning. We atheists/secularists should always be on the watch for other-worldly motivations that use all the products of rational science.

I have found a profound amount of strange thinking in regards to humanity settling space. These colonies on other planets are full of peaceful and loving people. The happy human race spreads into the galaxies with fine families and nice people.

HUH? Have any of the futurist space colonisers, even read one book of history? Humans have been killing eachother for millenia and if you read the newspapers, they haven't slowed down too much. Why does anyone think that bloody minded humans would not roast eachother across the galaxies? What is so great about spreading the killer species homo-sapiens all around?

Finally, back to my surrogate heaven concept. Is not the religious heaven a place of bucolic peace and happiness? Is not the dream of space colonies a place of peace and happiness? I see a motivational connection here and a delusion underpining rationality.

By the way who gives a rat's about the earth being destroyed by an asteroid. I, and everyone here will have been "dust in wind" for centuries. There is a real world out there now, enjoy it.

elwoodblues

One of the larger causes of war is lack of elbow room. Draw your own conclusion.

butswana

You also have to take into account the type people that would be doing the colonizing. They would be highly intelligent and highly trained professionals, not the unwashed rabble.
I read a short story about a couple of lunar colonists who after a decade or so decided to return to Earth. After a few weeks of having to deal with viruses, bacteria and Earth dwellers, they wanted to go back to the moon.

jfbiii

The moon is a waste of time as a serious staging area. Anything sent from the moon still has to be sent from earth first.

This is the big difference between the moon and mars. Colonies on mars could be self-sustaining.

I welcome the next space race, and if it takes China to spark it then so be it.

If I had Bill Gates fundage I'd have written the $30-$50 billion check a couple of years ago to get to mars. Even if I decided not to go that route, I'd invest $15 or so for the creation of a viable commercial space elevator.

ISS is a waste of time. For an agency with a $13 billion budget NASA embodies everything that's wrong with the state trying to do the job of industrialists.

KSR's mars trilogy is damn good. Highly recommended.

elwoodblues

Learn about the phrase 'gravity well'.

Learn about linear/square relations.

Learn how escape velocity is calculated.

Sit down and do the math.

You'll soon realize why the moon is not a 'waste of time'.

sullster

Butswanna, Do you think that highly intelligent and trained professionals do not have the same brain which evolved in the rest of the unwashed homo sapiens? Pick up a book on the history of Nazi Germany and you will be able to pick out a lot of intelligent and trained professionals who caused the deaths of millions.

Have you ever spent a lot of time with a bunch of intelligent professionals? You must not have, because the idea of being stuck with such a group in a tin box on Mars in a vision of hell.

Oh, so the earth is nothing but bacteria, viruses and smelly Earth dwellers. Well, excuuuuuse me for being an Earth dweller. You have confirmed for me why I want absolutely none of my money to go to a bunch of elitists who are going to play house in space.

Don't like it here, then go, just don't tax me to pay for the tin can.

elwoodblues

That was a short story by Robert Heinlein.

If you want to learn about the rationale behind colonization improving the species (some self-selection, but mainly through Darwinian selection; space is a dangerous place), check out Heinlein's work. The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress is a good place to start.

jfbiii

Or you might.

Anything set up on the moon will not be self-sustaining as the moon lacks the necessary resources.

Extracting resources in that situation and supporting the necessary infrastructure to then fashion those raw materials into anything usable ends up being more expensive than simply fabricating it here on earth. Same with extracting the raw materials from the moon and fabricating them back on earth.

The moon won't make anything cheaper. As far as the ability to construct larger ships than on earth, LEO is similarly suitable and involves the development of technology that is more adaptable to space exploration, when not every planet with a gravity well similar to earth will possess such a launch pad and will necessarily have to rely on low-orbit launching facilities.

The most practical and economic means of space exploration currently remains launching directly from earth. After the development of a space elevator, LEO will be the most attractive alternative. The moon may possess value as an outpost. But someone has yet to discover the killer ap which will pay for the infrastructure whose existence may eventually make the moon suitable as a staging area for space exploration.

But then again, I might be taking a long enough view. The moon may well make sense for future generations to invest in a permanent colony, but I think for this generation Mars remains the most attractive target.