diana

Did you want to have a discussion with me, or are you content to slap around your pet straw men?

Isn't it annoying when your opponent won't give you something good you can quote against her so you're forced to put ridiculous words in her mouth?

Such comments suggest to me that no matter what I respond with, you will, like most apologists, find some way to discount or marginalize it. Failing that, you appear to have no problem saying, "Sorry, Diana. I just don't believe you."

Your "theory" appears non-falsifiable, Mr. Kelly. This means it isn't a theory at all. It is a dogma. Dogma is the antithesis of rationality.

Actually, it would have been far more interesting had you been able to honestly reply that you hadn't had sexual relations with an adult when you were a child, as that would have made you an exception to the rule. However, I don't think either of us, regardless of personal experience, is relegated exclusively to assumptions. As you yourself have pointed out, there's plenty of information out there. You can interview people, for instance. You can read documentaries. Discuss these things with child psychologists.

I asked more out of curiosity than thinking it would give your opinion more or less weight. You keep speaking as though you're attracted to children yourself and you had sexual experiences as a child but don't feel they warped you in any way. I wanted confirmation.

Had you replied in the negative, I'd have considered your opinion less likely biased by personal experiences, uninvolved and therefore more likely to be rational.

Would you believe me? Only if I say something you have already decided is true, I suspect. You've already adequately demonstrated your propensity to do so.

And...the parents? What did the parents of your love interests have to say? You didn't mention.

You make a habit of making unfounded and grossly incorrect assertions about my activites and how I've arrived at my opinions. Do you do this with everyone? It's rather rude.

I'm not a news freak. My information comes to me from those who were exploited sexually as children and from transcripts of psychologists who have interviewed such victims.

I can't get over the feeling that you have ulterior motives here. However, you said "if." I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate some of this "rationalism." Please support your position.

Right. And children do have a right to their sexuality.

However, we haven't settled if grown men have a right to have sex with children, or film children having sex, with or without their consent. Please support your position.

d

Pat Kelly

When you have been able to address this question there will be some purpose in our continuing this conversation.

As far as your continued assertions I am a pedophile I have already stated that is incorrect. Deal with it and find some other excuse to help you account for my views.

Grizzly

Pat Kelly (and other potential newcomers to IIDB reading this thread).

Welcome to IIDB. There are some things that you should know about how things operate here. First, you should read the IIDB rules and regulations posted here

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=42034

and take heed of these 9 pillars of wisdom. Pay particular attention to #2.

As for how the moderators operate here, anyone who is a moderator in any forum has the title moderator, but it does not necessarily mean that they are a moderator of the forum that you are participating. The moderators for this forum are 99percent, Brighid, Grizzly, and The Other Michael (who is also an admin on the board). Furthermore, if a mod seems fit to edit someone post, it is done with great reluctance (at least by me). But the moderators name will appear at the bottom of you post along with the date and time the edit was made. Additionally, you will most likely receive a PM indicatating that an edit was made.

Furthermore, if someone makes a post that is threatening or abusive to you, we encourage you to use the "report this post to a moderator" feature in the lower left hand corner. It helps us to become alerted to potential abuses of the board.

Now having said that, this thread is on a downward spiral to lockdown. I am going through the thread and I am deleting all personal attacks I find. If the tone of this thread continues to be more about personal attacks than the subject at hand, it will be closed.

Finally, if any poster has any complaints about the moderation of a forum, they are encouraged to contact that moderator via PM to discuss. If this is not satisfactory, then one can always make a complaint public in the Bugs, Problem, and Complaints forum located here

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=16

Those who post here are encouraged to provide as much specifics as possible, including a link to the thread in question.

Grizzly

Fred

It is all well and good to "discuss this rationally" for those who do not suffer as a result of it.
I suffered 6 hours of nightmares last night as a result of my memories and the fact that this type of assault on innocent children is being discussed in this manner. Children should be protected, not singled out as targets for selfish adults who would use them.
My dear sisters will never be the same again, their lives were forever changed. One set about becoming very quiet and very fat so as to be unattractive and the other, the elder of the two, has withdrawn into her small world and rarely ventures out. The family was destroyed and lies scattered over the land. All this because one man had allowed himself to be desensitised into believing it was okay. It is not okay.
Discussing this subject on a public forum may entice others to partakes in this terrible cruelty. My advice would be that if for some reason you see child porn on the internet, the decent thing to do is to report it to the proper authorities. I am sure if you do this you will not be arrested.

When discussing any subject like this one must have somebody who may represent the victim, or who has some experience.
I am sad that this is taking place on an atheist forum and believe it debases our belief.

There should have been another commandment. "Honour thy children".

I do not apologise for losing it earlier, after all I payed the price of a disturbed nights sleep. I am considering calling the police and reporting this thread. That is how personal experience, not inane discussion, feels towards this sort of thing.

Feather

Seconded. I was going to ask this, too.

keyser_soze

I agree with you 85%, but believe that this particular vicious predator behaviour needs to be paraded occasionally, lest we forget that such uncaring monsters roam VERY freely out there. I use to have nightmares a lot, especially when I took on a new case and had to read the files...followed by a week of depression, and then a month of nothing but the vilest anger. I even found myself once compiling a list of predators in my area. I think you know what my intention was, but I drew back from that edge, and tried to pull myself back into a rational mindset. When it comes to child abuse and rape, I have an admittedly tough time being logical, but I do try. It disturbs me to no end that there is a percentage of the population who try to rationalize such "urges" as normal. It strikes me even odder that someone would think an atheist site would be the grounds to bring it up, as if by being non-religious, that we would have no moral grounding. Trying to rationalize this despicable nature by claiming "higher thought" is pretty pathetic. Low indeed.

Fred

Thank you keyser - soze.
I find it very difficult to remain unemotional when my beloved sisters safety is concerned. I cleary remember the expressions on their faces when it all came out. The amount of suffering involved is incredible and as I said before, long lasting.
Both girls had been happy, playful little girls until they reached the ages 6 and 8 respectively. 6 and 8 !
A child does not choose a career in porn, that choice isn't given to them. I discovered that the major cause is simply the extreme selfishness of adult individuals. It is the desire to satisfy their own lust that causes unspeakable suffering. I know, I' ve witessed it.
My objection here is that there is a positive within the opening post. This should see that this thread or any like it are gone.
There is a world wide epidemic of child abuse and these sinister characters on the net share the responsibility. I see this thread as a support for this activity, not the oppossite.
This also has nothing to do with atheism, in fact it is recognised world wide as a crime. I must ask, are there any threads promoting murder here ?

The Other Michael

Hello Fred,

You'll find discussions of euthanasia, murder, abortion, eating meat, and on and on here. This is where we discuss the morality/ethics of any number of possible activities.

The line is drawn when someone advocates something illegal that could have negative aspects on IIDB. But the discussion of hypothetical scenarios is a big part of what goes on in MF&P.

cheers,
Michael
Moderator (Maximus)

diana

Mr. Kelly,

I just caught the caveat in your request above. I don't think it can be done. No matter what I say, pertaining to how children who have been molested respond over time, you will say, "That's a result of our socialization."

Possibly. But here's the thing: we're stuck with it. If not, how do you propose to change such an intrinsic part of our culture?

I do think that there is at least one damaging aspect of adult-child sexual activity that isn't linked to our social response to sex, and that would be the child's inability to give consent for his actions, but unable to find a way out of a situation he doesn't really want to be in.

Do you believe children have enough experience/intelligence to make these determinations and get out of the situation if they are uncomfortable? If so, please tell me why you think so. If not, sex with children amounts to rape, because it cannot be consensual.

d

Grizzly

Hi Fred,

From time to time a child pornograpy-pedophilia thread will pop up here at IIDB (usually here in MF&P). The way we have handled them in the past is to try and keep the discussion "on-topic" as much as possible and keep personal attacks to a minimum. Furthermore, we will not allow the direct advocacy of any crime (including sex with minors, murder, theft etc).

However, we have felt that discussions like these should be allowed to continue. Discussing topics such as these go right to the heart or morality and what it means to be moral. I personally feel that it would be a loss if these types of disuscussion were summarily deleted. If you feel that someone is directly advocating a crime, please contact me or another mod/admin and we can discuss it. If these topics become too painful for you, I would recommend avoided them altogether.

Grizzly