Seraphim

Maybe I am missing your point, maybe you see Buddhism as a list of arduous tasks or a strict set of rules which must be followed. Maybe you see Buddha as a god to be worshiped. If this is the case then you might be talking about a "true Buddhist" (tm), one which only fits your particular guidelines.

My reply : The rules and tasks which is required in Buddhism doesn't come from the teaching itself, but from the person who is following (or trying to follow) it.

When I asked whether a Atheist have what it takes, I meant from Atheist him/herself and not the requirement (if there is any) from Buddhism.

A true Buddhist will not worship Buddha like a God because Gautama NEVER taught his students such practises. The rest is your personal opinion and I will not debate about that.

Now it is your turn to answer my question.

My reply : Fair enough, its my turn.

... what do you think Buddhism is beyond the four noble truths?

My reply : How about :

1. Seeking of understanding oneself and his surrounding?
2. Sacrifice required to let go of what you are familiar and binds you down to seek understanding?
3. Determination to follow the path you choose?

This is what I think is beyond those four noble paths ... personal convictions, determination and inner strenght to pursue the path which one choose to follow.

What is it, beyond understanding these truths and constant self examination that Buddhism requires? It seems that many atheists have gone through a similar path as the mythological Buddha as they search for "truth" and their experience should not be so readily discounted. Are you just ranting? If so then there is nothing to discuss.

http://www.tricycle.com/buddhistbasics/fourtruths.html

Four noble Truth :
1. Suffering is universal and Inevitable.
2. The cause of suffering is Desire.
3. Way to dispel Ignorance (another word - Opening your mind).

Have any of you EVER sat down and THINK about why people looking at you differently? I don't think so. I have went to so many threads and all I see is how Atheists parade around by telling that they did something which most likely to upset someone else.

Have any of you ever sat down and ASK yourself what you SEEK? I don't think so. All I see if anger and grudge against those with faiths for one reason or another.

There are even some who considered that the reason why he or she doesn't believe in anything is because he or she doesn't see the prove. Have you ever ASK yourself what PROVE you seek?

In conclusion, all I have seen here (and in real life) is bunch of people with more questions then answers. You are NOT in the same path of Buddha. At least Gautama knew that there is an answer to all his question somewhere beyond the walls of his castle and left his home to find it. He opened himself and his mind to seek that answer, all I seek from you are closed minds and those who seek to justify his or her own ignorance by finding more and more excuses.

If you wish for an answer, go and Find it. Don't expect the answer to come and find you. IF Gautama did that, he could have sat inside his castle and could never have become a Buddha nor could we have Buddhism in the world now.

AdamWho

Seraphim

Thank you for your prompt reply. I think I understand you better now.

Yes, I constantly try to understand my life and people around me. You may feel that people on this board are hostile and intolerant (unfortunately often right) but you might be generalizing a little.

Just because some of the posters are angry bitter atheists doesn't mean every one is. In fact there are probably lots of lurkers (people who just read the posts) who are very sympathetic to Buddhism and are honestly trying to reduce the harm in this world.

If you are angry about the topic of this thread "Buddhism and atheism" and feel that it is an insult for Buddhism to be compared to atheism, then ask your self this questions:

Are you clinging to your conception of Buddhism? Is your desire to understand Buddhism in certain way a manifestation of desire (and suffering)? Isn't you anger toward other posters in opposition to a Buddhist way of life? Would the Buddha get angry at the people on this board?

Please respond kindly, I am not your enemy.

Adam

Seraphim

Thank you for your prompt reply. I think I understand you better now.

My reply : I think you meant that you understood my intention rather than myself (since I still looking for myself in me). Either way, both is OK by me.


Yes, I constantly try to understand my life and people around me. You may feel that people on this board are hostile and intolerant (unfortunately often right) but you might be generalizing a little.

My reply : That is one of the first steps in self-discovery. Think about each actions you take before or after you take it and you will find a lot of things you didn't know about yourself. Your actions is the mirror of your conscious.

Just because some of the posters are angry bitter atheists doesn't mean every one is. In fact there are probably lots of lurkers (people who just read the posts) who are very sympathetic to Buddhism and are honestly trying to reduce the harm in this world.

My reply : The problem is, we do not know who misbehave and who doesn't. A person who calls himself a Buddhism (or Atheist and any other religion or group for that matter) will cast a dark shadow over the whole group because of his or her actions. Frankly speaking, I do not want Buddhism get dragged through the mud like Islam is now by people who doesn't know themselves.

If you are angry about the topic of this thread "Buddhism and atheism" and feel that it is an insult for Buddhism to be compared to atheism, then ask your self this questions:

My reply : Why should I be angry at Buddhism and Atheism been compared? However, your comparison should stop here and not outside in the real world (which will be carried out by people who consider it to be proper) where it will upset a lot of people.

Remember, Buddhism is a TEACHING because it doesn't hold a person down with rituals, preaching etc, it promote each and everyone to go and find themselves. Your comparison could be based on your personal experiences and understanding of Buddhism and your own lives, I cannot say anything about that, but such comparison and acceptance is YOURS alone.

Are you clinging to your conception of Buddhism?

My reply : No use for me to have such conception since it will bind me down with rules and regulations like a religion. So the answer is NO.

Is your desire to understand Buddhism in certain way a manifestation of desire (and suffering)?

My reply : My desire (and suffering) is result of my quest to find myself and my place in the world. This life is my journey and that is all that matters. As for Buddhism, it is one of the guides I use to find myself, nothing more.

Isn't you anger toward other posters in opposition to a Buddhist way of life?

My reply : Does calling yourself a Buddhist but still living life without trying to achieve betterment in your life is Buddhist way of life?
To me, self-sacrifice, determination to follow one's path and open-mindness (to dispel ignorance) is a way of Buddhism. What about you? What is your concept of Buddhist way of life?

Would the Buddha get angry at the people on this board?

My reply : I'm no Buddha, but I can only make a guess. Gautama will not be angry at people at this board, only SAD. Too many people with questions but lack of determination to step forward and explore for themselves. That's what I see anyway.

Please respond kindly, I am not your enemy.

My reply : Can't get any kinder than this. Don't even have sarcasm in it (which is my nature which I have accepted as part of me).

Herbert Von Karajan

Care to post evidence that Siddharta was actually a theist?

Seraphim

Care to post evidence that Siddharta was actually a theist?

My question : Care to post evidence that he was an Atheist (or any other group for that matter)?
While you at it, you may want to give details of similarities between Gautama and an Atheist since I see none.

Remember, all you (and me) have is word of mouth from various sources about his conducts and we based our speculation of what he was due to those.

AdamWho

Care to post evidence that Siddhartha was actually a theist?

Remember, all you (and me) have is word of mouth from various sources about his conducts and we based our speculation of what he was due to those.We have more than just word of mouth about the teachings and beliefs of Buddha. There is no god in Buddhism, gods may have been incorporated into Buddhism later, but that is not what the Buddha taught.

Seraphim, you seem to be very apposed to associating Buddhism and atheism. Do you understand that atheism is just the lack of belief in a god? Are you operating under some false assumptions about atheism?
In doesn't diminish or corrupt Buddhism anyway to say that it is an atheistic religion.

Seraphim

We have more than just word of mouth about the teachings and beliefs of Buddha. There is no god in Buddhism, gods may have been incorporated into Buddhism later, but that is not what the Buddha taught.

My reply : Maybe true, maybe not. It is irrelevant to this discussion since none of us ever met Buddha and ask his opinion whether he believed in a God or not. Not sure about you, but I find it amusingly riddiculous to talk about whether someone who lived over 2,500 years ago believed in God or not.

Seraphim, you seem to be very apposed to associating Buddhism and atheism. Do you understand that atheism is just the lack of belief in a god? Are you operating under some false assumptions about atheism?

My reply : Now you're Pissing me Off. Have you read what I wrote earlier about the Four Noble Truth and how it (from my point of view) contradicts with Atheism (based on Atheists around here and their attitude)? Go and read ALL those questions I have you earlier.

In doesn't diminish or corrupt Buddhism anyway to say that it is an atheistic religion.

My reply : Calling it (Buddhism) a RELIGION itself already consider as a corruption.

Do you know what a TEACHING means? To me, Buddhism is a teaching where it guides others toward the path to self-discovery. Atheism doesn't do that, it promotes questions, NEVER promote answers NOR any path to self-discovery.

If Buddha were a Atheist, he could have sat at his castle with his wife and child (a Son) and wondered about life and its questions LIKE you people sitting in front of your PC and wondering now. He (Gautama) couldn't have sacrificed his wealth, comfort and EVERYTHING he know and cherish to go out into the world and seek the truth he knew is out there.

Herbert Von Karajan

Yes, yes. All we have could be just all hearsays. Then Seraphim, you claimed to know Siddharta believe in God. Well, if it is your opinion, I accept. As a "fact", I would remain agnostic on this matter.

Seraphim

Yes, yes. All we have could be just all hearsays. Then Seraphim, you claimed to know Siddharta believe in God. Well, if it is your opinion, I accept. As a "fact", I would remain agnostic on this matter.

My reply : Correction. I never said Gautama believed in God, nor have I read anywhere that he did. All I said (and saying now) is that I don't know whether he was an Atheist, a Theist, Deist and whatever terms you guys have out there, so it is illogical to assume Gautama is anything BUT a man who is seeking himself and his place in this world (JUST like everyone else).

His ways is considered Teaching which means it's a suggested path of self-discovery, NONE is forced to follow it IF they don't have what it takes (in my opinion, that's should be self-discipline, determination and Inner strenght). Religion is something which usually Fixed with rules and regulation, answers which no one should question and things of such.

Herbert Von Karajan

His ways is considered Teaching which means it's a suggested path of self-discovery, NONE is forced to follow it IF they don't have what it takes (in my opinion, that's should be self-discipline, determination and Inner strenght). Religion is something which usually Fixed with rules and regulation, answers which no one should question and things of such.

O.k, sorry for misunderstanding. But, why the cringe against atheists attempting Buddhism? From my interpretation of your views, atheism is a "belief" which lacked discipline compared to "teachings" like Buddhism, correct?