Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Boro Nut · 11-28-2002, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed:
No, as I stated above, the overarching reason for death in general is sin and "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

Not me mate. I am as straight as an arrow I am. As pure as the driven snow. If anyone tries to say otherwise I swear I'll bloody well murder them in cold blood, just like the others.

Boro Nut

Ed · 11-30-2002, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:

Ed: Actually in ancient Israel regular marriages could be broken very easily, all the husband had to do was say that his wife displeased her and they could get a divorce. Remember Christ addressed this and said that it was allowed for a time but marriage was not originally intended this way and gave the only true grounds for divorce in which it was much more difficult to get one.

nogo: I do not have time to answer this one now but I will later. It was illegal to divorce and I will prove it to you. You are contradicting yourself. Below you state that women could not survive without a husband yet you say that it was easy for the husband to divorce. I would bet that there would then be a lot of helpless women around.

Probably but God required them to help the abandoned, read the Psalms. As far as OT divorce is concerned read Deut. 24:1.

Quote:

Ed: No, it says "you shall not mistreat her", that is evidence that he would not rape her. Also, the humbling referred to is probably the killing of her family. Another thing to remember is that in ancient times for a woman not to have a husband was just about a death sentence by starvation or involuntary prostitution. In ancient times having a husband was the only security a woman could have and the only way she could survive. So most of these women, even though of course they were upset by the deaths of their families and in fact were allowed to mourn them in peace see the verses above, probably were somewhat relieved to get married since that is the only way their future and any children they may have could be secure.

nogo: Open your eyes!
These women were captured in battle. Other people like teenage boys who captured in battle were simply killed. These women were kept for sexual purposes and then let go to fend for themselves.

Not exactly they could marry someone else. See Deut. 24:1.

Quote:

nogo: So from the Bible verses that I posted, You are actually saying that Yahweh allowed men to abandon their foreign wives whenever they wanted and for no reason, knowing that they had no chance for survival. That is your moral God?

No see above.

Quote:

nogo: "Humbled her" means raped. This is so because if they had left them as virgins they could sell them. If you read the text properly you will notice that it says that they could not sell them because they had been humbled.

It often does mean raped but not always, and in this case I believe it refers to the killing of her family. The hebrew word "anah" can also mean "deal harshly with" or "afflict" if someone killed your family then these words definitely apply.

NOGO · 12-01-2002, 04:27 PM

Ed, you have this nasty habbit of not answering the latest posts.

Quote:

Ed
The hebrew word "anah" can also mean "deal harshly with" or "afflict" if someone killed your family then these words definitely apply.

Show me one place in the Bible where 'anah' to a woman means something other than rape.
Ok Ed say that you are right and 'anah' does mean 'deal harshly with'
One way to test this is substitution ...

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed
14 "It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, �you shall not mistreat her, because you have humbled her.

You posted this Ed emphasizing the bold part.

Substitutiing ...

14 "It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, �you shall not mistreat her, because you have dealt harshly with her.

"you shall not mistreat her" refers to the possible selling her for money because she was a slave.
"humble" means rape unless you can find another example where it means differently applied to women and where sex is part of the picture.

'anah' is sometimes translated as dishonoured but this word is also used to designate a woman who has lost her virginity outside of marriage.

You have not answered the part of "let her go"
Show me where in the Bible divorce is described as "let her go"
Show me where in the Bible men are allowed to sell their wifes.

[ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

NOGO · 12-01-2002, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Deut 24
1 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house,

Notice the bold text, Ed. Deut 21:14 does not say anything about indecency and Deut 24:1 does not say anything about selling his wife.

Most important however is that Deut 21:14- does not talk about a certificate of divorce like Deut 24.

[ December 01, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

Ed · 12-03-2002, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eudaimonist:

Originally posted by Ed:
So most of these women, even though of course they were upset by the deaths of their families and in fact were allowed to mourn them in peace see the verses above, probably were somewhat relieved to get married since that is the only way their future and any children they may have could be secure.

euda: Relieved?!? Their loved ones were murdered, and they have been given no option other than to live every last day of their lives "married" to the murderers!

Relieved? Try a living nightmare!

Do you realize how abominable your words are?

I don't think you realize dangerousness of ancient societies 3500 years ago, especially for women. Although it was horrible situation that brought her a husband, she could see by living with the Isrealites for at least a month that they were morally superior to most of the nations in the area and she often learned that their god WAS God, and so life was much better than living in the society that she grew up in, even though she had a pay a horrible price. And if she decided that she didn't want the man as her husband all she had to do was act as unhappy as possible and her husband would divorce her and let her go.

Ed · 12-04-2002, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:


"you shall let her go wherever she wishes"

It does not say that you can divorce her.
"let her go wherever she wishes" means free from slavery. That is why the very next thing it says is the issue of not selling her for money.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

Terms like "let her go" meant divorce in OT times read also Deut. 24:1,where it says "send her out".

Jack the Bodiless · 12-05-2002, 12:56 AM

Quote:

I don't think you realize dangerousness of ancient societies 3500 years ago, especially for women. Although it was horrible situation that brought her a husband, she could see by living with the Isrealites for at least a month that they were morally superior to most of the nations in the area and she often learned that their god WAS God, and so life was much better than living in the society that she grew up in, even though she had a pay a horrible price. And if she decided that she didn't want the man as her husband all she had to do was act as unhappy as possible and her husband would divorce her and let her go.

I have said this before, Ed, but apparently you delibarately ignored it. Or maybe you need to get your eyes tested?

The ONLY danger faced by single women in ancient Israel was the fact that they lived in a society of RAPISTS. Single women were perfectly capable of making a living tending goats or whatever. They only needed protection from being RAPED by the Israelites.

And the Israelites were morally INFERIOR to many other cultures in the area. There were other cultures around which did NOT practise HUMAN SACRIFICE as the Israelites did, for instance.

And the ONLY way she could get freedom was if she no longer PLEASED HER HUSBAND. That is what the BIBLE says. If her husband was a sadist who enjoyed seeing her suffer, he would NEVER let her go.

I hope you can read that, Ed.

NOGO · 12-05-2002, 07:35 AM

NOGO:
you shall let her go wherever she wishes"
It does not say that you can divorce her.
"let her go wherever she wishes" means free from slavery. That is why the very next thing it says is the issue of not selling her for money.

Ed: Terms like "let her go" meant divorce in OT times read also Deut. 24:1,where it says "send her out".

You are taking things out of context.
IT IS NOT JUST "let her go" it is "let her go wherever she wishes"
Followed by
"you shall certainly not sell her for money"

Again you ignore evidence which does not suit your purpose, Ed.
"wherever she wishes" and " you shall certainly not sell her for money"
is CLEAR PROOF that we are talking about slavery and NOT marriage. [1]

You have also failed to answer the rest, Ed.

Namely ...

[2] Deut 21:14 does not say anything about indecency and Deut 24:1 does not say anything about selling his wife.

[3] Most important however is that Deut 21:14- does not talk about a certificate of divorce like Deut 24.

[4] Substitutiing ... you claim that humbled = dealt harshly with

14 "It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, �you shall not mistreat her, because you have dealt harshly with her.

The meaning of "humbled her" is not what you say it is. If you understand [1] then it is clear that humbled means raped.

I have numbered the four points here that you have not addressed.

What you are comparing is
Let he go because she has comitted some indecency and with a divorce certificate
TO
Let he go wherever she wishes and not sell her for money because you have humbled her.

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

Ed · 12-05-2002, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:

Ed
The scriptures tell us that any dream, vision, or teaching that a Christian experiences should always be judged by the word of God, ie the bible.

nogo: Ed here is showing us how far one can push the absurd.

He is saying that even if God appeared right in front of him and told him that the Bible was written by men and had nothing to do with Him. Ed would not believe Him.

The only God that I have experienced is the God of the bible therefore if some being appeared in front of me and did not have the same teachings or characteristics of the God I know then yes, I would not believe him, because he would most likely not be God.

Jack the Bodiless · 12-06-2002, 01:32 AM

Fascinating.

I "experienced" Sauron of Mordor when I read Lord of the Rings. Is this the only form of "experience" that YOU claim to have of God? As a character in a book?

If this isn't what you meant, and you've experienced something outside the Bible that you've attributed to God: how can you possibly know that the God you experienced was the Biblical one?

Are you familiar with the term "bibliolatry", Ed? How would you answer such an accusation?

12-05-2002, 07:35 AM	#228
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	NOGO: you shall let her go wherever she wishes" It does not say that you can divorce her. "let her go wherever she wishes" means free from slavery. That is why the very next thing it says is the issue of not selling her for money. Ed: Terms like "let her go" meant divorce in OT times read also Deut. 24:1,where it says "send her out". You are taking things out of context. IT IS NOT JUST "let her go" it is "let her go wherever she wishes" Followed by "you shall certainly not sell her for money" Again you ignore evidence which does not suit your purpose, Ed. "wherever she wishes" and " you shall certainly not sell her for money" is CLEAR PROOF that we are talking about slavery and NOT marriage. [1] You have also failed to answer the rest, Ed. Namely ... [2] Deut 21:14 does not say anything about indecency and Deut 24:1 does not say anything about selling his wife. [3] Most important however is that Deut 21:14- does not talk about a certificate of divorce like Deut 24. [4] Substitutiing ... you claim that humbled = dealt harshly with 14 "It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, �you shall not mistreat her, because you have dealt harshly with her. The meaning of "humbled her" is not what you say it is. If you understand [1] then it is clear that humbled means raped. I have numbered the four points here that you have not addressed. What you are comparing is Let he go because she has comitted some indecency and with a divorce certificate TO Let he go wherever she wishes and not sell her for money because you have humbled her. [ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

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12-06-2002, 01:32 AM	#230
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Fascinating. I "experienced" Sauron of Mordor when I read Lord of the Rings. Is this the only form of "experience" that YOU claim to have of God? As a character in a book? If this isn't what you meant, and you've experienced something outside the Bible that you've attributed to God: how can you possibly know that the God you experienced was the Biblical one? Are you familiar with the term "bibliolatry", Ed? How would you answer such an accusation?

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