Quetzal

Wow, MG, pretty sad when you Brits can't find science teachers and have to import them from the US.

stonetools

QUOTE] Tell you what Stonetools, why not start another thread in the Misc discussion forum? Maybe you would care to pen a list of all the armies that have been inspired by the atheist banner fluttering before them? Just a thought.

Martin

[/QUOTE]
I was just thinking that myself. I think I will start such a thread.
Stalin's ground troops were not motivated by religion.They were motivated by by a political ideology that said 'lets do away with religion because religion is evil.'
This is a rather common belief among athiests. I could do a search all through this forum and find countless quotes that would say exactly that
describing religious folks as stupid, wicked, fucking goatherds, etc,etc, etc.
Atheism may start with a lack of belief in gods. But it most cerainly does not end there, and Nietziche's and Marx's philosophies can be seen as a working out of their beliefs that there were no gods. But i agree with you, Oolon. Back to the thread...
[

Automaton

I dunno about you guys, but I'd LOVE to be a student at that school. I already give my science teachers a hard time with my nagging questions, and they teach legitimite science! *evil grin* A full-blown debate with an idiot creationist teacher would be hilarious. I could even hand out flyers to the students. Gee, it wouldn't take me very long to get expelled, eh?

Dr Rick

Their motivation was political, and there is no such thing as "athiesm-Marxist-Leninism" just as there there is no such thing as "Christian-fascism." Juxtaposing unrelated concepts does not support the argument that the Soviets committed atrocities because they were atheists.

<strong> You could also find quotes from theists denegrating atheists. The difference is that you can easily find examples of the former committing mass-murders because of their god-beliefs, but you are hard-pressed to find examples of atheists killing theists because of their lack of god-beliefs. The examples you have cited were all motivated by beliefs unrelated to atheism.

<strong> Yes it does; atheism is lack of god-belief and nothing more.

<strong> Marx observed that organized religion is an oppressive tool of the capitalists which placates the masses into accepting their fate; One could be a theist and reach the same conclusion.

<strong> Atheism was not the motivation of the atrocities committed by the Soviets and Chinese; the Crusades, the Inquisition, and 911 were motivated by religion.

[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

Jubal

Umm...Marx would actually have disapproved very strongly of the actions of Stalin and friends.

Analogy: Skinhead counterculture became very popular at some point with the Neonazi crowd, to the dismay of the people who created it. Skinhead counterculture was actually very benign, it just got a bad rap.

stonetools

I was ready to let the thread go but then I saw scigirl’s post! I thought about turning the other cheek, but I just had to respond. God will forgive m e…

First moderator. Are people allowed to use profanity in their posts? Because I know some cuss words too, like queen bitch and asshole. Those did go through my mind when I read her post , but I won’t use them.
I would like some clarification on this , however.
Now , Scigirl, if you would take your head out of your genetic behind and read the whole thread, you will find that I was not the first one to start the name calling. I was responding to an atheist who brought up how religious folks were responsible for 911. I guess that I did’nt read the part of the posting policy which said that said that religious posters could’nt respond to name calling by atheists, but I want to thank the atheist thought police for clearing that up for me.
STONETOOLS
quote:

I think the key is that when it comes to mass murder, don't let anyone off the hook. Torquemada may not have been a true Christian, but then where were the true Christians who should have stopped him?
The atheist defense that Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were not true atheists does'nt work for me, either. If they were not true atheists, what were they? .(And where were the "true" atheists to stop them?)
I'll tell you: they were true, intolerant, doctrinaire atheists, who caused mass mayhem, just like true, intolerant, doctrinaire religious folks.

SCIGIRL:

Finally, you got it. So quit bringing up fucking Stalin, and we won't bring up Sept 11. Fair?

Of course, you got what happened ass backwards. Also, I was the one who wanted everybody to take responsibility for THEIR side. It was the atheists that argue ( and still argue!) that they aren’t responsible for anything. I hope YOU got it.

quote:

I think of Hitler as an atheist, myself.


Oh, go fuck yourself.

Thank you, scigirl, for quoting that snippet. No Yec could have done better.
Now, for the full quote.
quote:
KAREN M
A correct analogy would be that I can not say that Hitler mass murdering people was modivated by Christianity simply because Hitler was a Christian. Hitler was not killing people to promote Christianity or because of anything which he believed his religion told him to do; he was killing them because he wanted to take over the world and he wanted the aryan race to feel superior.

STONETOOLS

What in the world makes you think Hitler was a Christian? He was a lapsed Catholic who, following the teachings of Nietziche, believed that Christianity and Judaism were slave religions
and that Ayrans should rid themselves of both religions. We all know what he tried to do about JUdaism, but he also tried hard to wipe out Polish Catholicism(two million Poles died in Hitler's death camps).
I think of Hitler as an atheist, myself.But you already have enough on your plate trying to get away from Stalin and Mao, so lets leave Hitler out of it.
( Needless to say, of course, people who admire Nietziche claim that the disciple distorted the master's teaching (end quote)

As you can see, I was responding to Karen M’s statement that Hitler was a Christian. Notice that I didn’t get my bloomers all in an uproar about her statement. I merely said well, I thought that Hitler was an atheist, but lets leave him out of this. Note that no else thought I was trying to be insulting. (Believe me, you will know when I try). BTW, do you know anything about the roots of Hitler’s political ideology? Ever read Nietziche? Spengler? What if I told you that Hitler’s political philosophy was based in part on a corruption of Nietzsche’s philosophy, would you know what I meant? You may be queen of genes around here, scigirl, but you may not know a lot about political philosophy.
I’m surprised, frankly that there is so much comment on an offhand comment that I made responding to a post. Maybe I WILL start that thread.

Bede

Rufus,

Christians killed each other over brands of atheism so I don't see how this point helps you.

Anyway, Stalin thought that atheism was essential to a functioning communist society so persecuted non-atheists, that is religious people.

Torquemada thought that Catholicism was essential to a functioning Christian society so persecuted non-Catholics, that is heretics.

Hang on. There's a bit of a symmetry here. Except of course that Torque managed to kill about 2,000 and Stalin about 20,000,000.

Yours

Bede (I'll be off again now, nothing much has changed)

<a href="http://www.bede.org.uk" target="_blank">Bede's Library - faith and reason</a>

[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Bede ]</p>

Jack the Bodiless

No matter how much you would "like to think" Hitler was an atheist:

He wasn't.

But it's a very common accusation from theists who want to push Hitler into our camp. We get VERY tired of it after a while.

theyeti

The flaw in your argument is that Stalin did not kill people merely to promote atheism. He killed largely because he was paranoid that various groups of people were out to get him -- people that might possibly be as trecherous to him as he had been to everyone else. He killed middle class farmers and merchants, various ethnic groups who's loyalty he questioned, government officials at all levels, and much of the military at one time or another. Very little of this had anything to do with atheism. It had to do with offing people who he thought were opposed to the revolution, which due to his extreme paranoia, included almost anyone. In many cases, this included the church and its followers, who were easy and obvious targets.

Torquemada (only one of many who murdered in the name of Christ) was indeed trying to promote Catholicism, and not just trying to secure his power by destroying anyone who might be a threat to him. I suppose one could argue that he and the Catholic church were paranoid of losing power in the same way that Stalin was, but it's much less obvious.

But who reallly cares? Why should the dirty acts of a few power-hungry despots have anything to do with the truth or falsehood of Christianity or atheism? Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. It most certainly is not Communism, which is the ideology that Stalin killed for. Nor is Christianity necessarily the ideology that Torquemada was opperating under. I think we should all drop the guilt by association bit and move on.

BTW, and this goes for eveyone, this thread has gone off topic of E/C. It will be moved to a more appropriate forum if it doesn't swerve back on topic. I know I'm to blame too...

theyeti

scigirl

Hello stonetools,

Actually sweetheart, you just did. At least when I want to be insulting I do it directly, and don't pretend to be nice.

Why did that even need responding to? Religious extremists WERE responsible for 9/11, isn't that a provable fact? Have you ever heard Bin Laden's speeches, Mr. "I know way more about politics than dumb little sci-chick" ? Those people thought that Allah was on their side!

What are you whining about - did your post get deleted? Last time I checked, your post is still there.

Incidentally, I have criticized many an infidel for their religious bashing. Of course you do not know that, since you are new, and only have 24 posts. Look at my post number please. I would appreciate it if you did not make assumptions about me, my education, and my background by my one post to you, which I fully admitted was out of character. However, you have to understand that I felt that you were trying to be offensive by your "hitler was an atheist" comment. Especially since many christians come here, accuse us of having no morals, compare us to nazis, call darwin a racist, blah blah blah, and then can't seem to understand why we get upset.

And if you actually read my ENTIRE post, you will see that I do not blame all problems on either religion, or lack thereof.

Um, I'm sorry. Stalin died before I was born, so I cannot possibly see how I am responsible for anything he did. And what do you mean by "our side?" Read the debates around here. There are atheists and agnostics who are republican, democrat, green party, socialist, capitalist, etc etc etc. There is no such thing as the atheist "side" ok, especially when it comes to political ideologies.

Furthermore, many of us especially in this particular forum (evo/cre) are scientists, and are interested in finding out the multifaceted causes of human behaviors in hopes to fix them. Evolutionary theory is one major player in that type of understanding. So I would say that yes, many of us here are not only doing our part to 'assess the blame' of tragedies like 9/11 or of Stalin, but also doing our part to prevent them.

Stonetools, why on earth would you even make such a statement in the first place? If I went to the Baptist board and said, "Personally I think Hitler was a Baptist" what do you think my intent would be? Hmmm, it doesn't take a graduate degree to figure that one out. . .

I know enough to stay out of the political discussion forum! Yes I've heard of that "knee-chay" guy. Just because I don't like you, that does not make me an idiot. Sorry to disappoint you. And yes, I have watched myriads of shows on the hitler (i mean history) channel. I know a fair bit about his political philosophy. I also know a fair bit about the economic state of Germany, and how these factors in a sense "allowed" a man like Hitler to win the vote (albeit not a majority vote), and usurp the power that he did. In terms of religion being a factor: a very twisted version of christianity AND evolution lended some credence to Hitler's grand plan. Also, religious prejudice no doubt played a role in the extermination of the Jews, although it was due to many other factors as well.

I wasn't so much offended with your Hitler comment (although I was offended) as your whole demeanor here at II. You come here, make strawman claims that people like Dawkins caused the YEC movement, and criticize one of the few people who has the guts to be politically incorrect when it comes to religion. I can't believe you are condemning Dawkins for stepping out of his bounds, when every single day, a Christian (or other religious) leader steps way out of their bounds - with every single issue facing humans!

Stonetools, I wish there were more people like Dawkins, especially here in the USA. People that don't kow-tow to the fundamentalists, that don't sugar-coat their beliefs but simply tell it like they see it. And why shouldn't they? I have to listen to religious conservatives in the media tell me what they think about issues such as abortion, stem cell research, cloning and evolution, when they have little if ANY formal scientific training. Do you think that's fair, st? Priests can yammer away all they want about the "evils" of stem cell research, but a scientist can't talk about religion? How do you figure?

No, I don't like it when people blame religion for all the problems, because that's just plain naive. But let's face it, adherence to certain religious beliefs can be harmful. And it's about time we start admitting it - out loud, in public. The first amendment has protected too many atrocities for too long. Ask any child from a Jehovah's Witness family who needed a blood transfusion, or a child with otitis media from a Christian Science family about how they were harmed by religion. Oh wait, you can't ask them. They are dead.

Also, I hold fundamentalist christianity indirectly responsible for acts of violence against abortion doctors and homosexuals. I don't care if most Christians condemn these violent acts, that is irrelevant. The fact is - if people believe that homosexuals are sinners and are going to Hell, then it has got to be easier to sustain violence against them. That's just plain common sense. The concept of "I hate the sin, but love the sinner" is unrealistic, and frankly doesn't work.

Ok, I managed to go off on several tangents here and for that I apologize. Sorry Oolon!

Sci-bitch (I take that as a compliment btw)