Oresta

hinduwoman,
You make a powerful case for the separation of religion and state.

brahma

hinduwoman,
You have obviously researched this issue thoroughly and I learnt much from your post. However, some of your statements dont make sense to me.

Are you saying that polygamy is allowed in India if you happen to be a muslim? I dont think so.

That doesnt make sense. Why would the court be a hostage to the muslim votebank when the hindu vote bank is 7 times as large? I have never heard of a situation where a minority has a sway over a court because of its smaller votebank.

Who are these intellectuals that harp about hinduism being evil? I have never heard such harping.

Are you serious? I believe the percentages of hindus and muslims in the government and academia more or less reflect that in the whole country. How then can a hindu's job prospects be affected since 'his people' form over 80% of the population? This can only happen in an Islamic institution but the reverse is also true in a Hindu institution. Personally, the only such case of discrimination I have witnessed first hand happened to be against non-brahmins. When I was an undergrad in Engg school the TVS group of companies came to recruit. The recruiter actually felt each boy's shoulder to see if he had a hindu sacred thread! Of course with my christian sounding name I was shown the door right away.

First off I think it was stupid to say that muslims should change a religious ceremony of theirs in order to accomodate the sentiments of another religion. What sense does that make?

I guess we just lived in totally different circles. I have never had any such issues with the man on the street.

What are you talking about?! Are we referring to the same country here? What hindu religious institutes are run by communists?

Is the Bajrang Dal supervised by communists too? I guess not since a christian missionary was burnt alive with his family in Orissa and the govt didnt shut the BD down? Of course a report was made clearing the BD, but we all know how credible that is. There have been well over a 100 cases of nuns being raped and killed and schools and churches being burned. The government has always shown little interest in pursuing these cases because that would annoy the VHP. I have no sympathy for christian missionaries converting anyone. But they have the same rights you or I have.

Second Class citizens? How can a group that makes up 82% of the population of a country feel they are second class? They are amply represented everywhere, in the govt, in academia, in the armed forces, everywhere. When was the last time we had a non-hindu as prime minister? Are you sure you are not projecting your personal feelings onto the nation as a whole? In my high school class we has 60 students, 48 of them where hindu and I can assure you that not one of them felt 'second-class' as a result of being hindu.

The chief minister of Gujarat, a hindu, stated proudly that every action has a reaction effectively exonerating the murderous mob that slaughtered muslims. Is this the sympathy you were looking for? In any other country he would have been sacked for allowing such a shameful episode.

IMHO the VHP is India's worst nightmare. It is akin to having a Taliban in Afghanistan or a Religious Right in the US. How can a country call itself secular when the party in power is decidedly not? Nobody is being fooled by the reassurances of the BJP that they are not a religious party. It is obvious that the VHP are the real puppet masters and the spineless netas dance to their tune.

Anyway, its late and I cannot go on though I want to. We can take this discussion offline if you like.

voltaire321

NO OFFLINE! NO OFFLINE!

*gets his popcorn and drink*


BTW, Go Salman! Go Salman! It's your birfday!

hinduwoman

Brahma, let me explain.

Legally muslims are allowed to have four wives, though Hindus and christians are not. Please check.

When two opposing religious communities live cheek-by-jowl then a little give and take is to be expected. The Muslims can slaughter any other animals they want, why do they have to kill cows particularly when the original sacrifices instituted by Mohammad were camels and goats? If you think it is stupid to change religious practices based on what other communities would think, then hindus are doing the right thing when they refuse to stop playing music and songs about idols as proccessions go by the mosque.

Please read papers, books and text books issued by the English-speaking elite in India and their lectures in seminars. You will rapidly percieve a bias and unwillingness to hear any criticism against Islam.

I gave you reasons why hindus feel discriminated against. Of course they are the majority, but they perceive they are being discrimnated against and as I pointed out their concern is valid --- no uniform law, hajsubsidy, religious institutions run by govt. etc. In terms of quality of life, the poor muslims are badly off, but that is not how it is being percieved.

VHP is a nightmare. But my point is that ordinary hindus will go on supporting them, even if half-heartedly, if their legitimate complaints are ignored in the name of secularism.

brahma

What is the rationale behind this arguement? The Hindu religion does not call for a man to have numerous wives. Then why feel discriminated against? There are way more Hindu laws than muslim laws anyway...
The Hindu Marriage Act, 1955
The Hindu Minority and Gaurdianship Act, 1956 
The Hindu Succession Act, 1956
The Hindu Adoptions and Maintenance Act, 1956
The Hindu Disposition of Property Act, 1916
etc...

Agreed. But I would not for a second expect to give or take anything if the basis of that request is another religion's beliefs. I hope you can see the distinction. If you as a hindu came to me as a muslim and said, "The loud speakers blaring your morning prayers disturb me. Could you please turn it down", then that is a genuine request, that I would honor. If on the other hand you came to me and said, "My religion prohibits me from listening to your morning prayers, please turn it down", then I would ask you to take a hike. You are asking a muslim to change something he does everyday because of your religious belief. That is not a fair request.

Do you seriously beleive that the muslims kill cows to piss the hindus off? I can assure you that the average muslim could not care less. He is just trying to make buck and have a meal. They kill them because they are plentiful and provide nourishment. As my good friend Volaire would say, "if we were not meant to eat cows, then why were they made to be so tasty?"

I have no problem with that whatsoever. Play if you must, play by all means. That is the essence of secularism.

I have heard a lot about how hindus are being persecuted and muslims are being pampered. I have not heard you say anything about the evils of hinduism. Why have you not spoken about the barbaric kar sevaks who slaughter other human beings to build a silly temple, the passages in the vedas that gave birth to the abhorrent caste system and untouchability, the disgraceful treatment meted out to widows? Why have you not spoken about how ridiculous it is to demolish a building that is centuries old and build a temple there because it is supposedly the birthplace of some mythical god? After all, that is the real reason behind this whole debacle in India. We all know that the Mughals destroyed a temple to build the mosque, but that is ancient, ancient history. Why bring it up now? The first time anyone even mentioned it was Ram's birthplace was in 1949, that was over 400 years after Baber! Is it the VHP's agenda to right every wrong in history?

IMO no major religion is without blame. Make no mistake, I am not talking about the religious, they are a problem all unto themselves, I am talking about the religion itself. Almost every religion preaches and practices exclusion in some form or the other, and I have particular hatred for a religion that excludes a group of its own people based on the status of their birth.

hinduwoman

Where is it required in Islam either that having four wives is a must? And what has the number of laws got to do with it? Anyway have you protested against the US govt. taking action against Mormons for polygamy?
The issue is of common law. Do the various religious groups in USA have different civil laws?

I have not spoken of what Karsevaks did because everyone here knows of it. Same for the evils of Hinduism.
By the way, the killer of Staines had left Bajrang dal two years before the deed. You can say this is a ploy, and BD ideology had driven him to do this, but there is no legal justification for banning the BD. If there had been then any fundamentalist Christian whose beliefs drive him to do violence or refuse medical treatment to his children should get their church banned in the USA.

You specially hate hinduism because of how it discrminates on basis of birth? I have heard this frequently. Well I am justified then in specially hating christianity which violently discriminates on basis of faith: the gulf between christains and non-christains are wide; and various sects of Christianity routinely discrimite against each other. It is only because of the better law and order in Western countires that they do not degenerate to outright murder.
But where conditions are bad, there you have outfits like "Nagaland for Christ".

However I have started a thread on this in Church-State separation forum titled "Riots in India is proof" where I have provided a number of links to illustrate my points about what the ordinary hindu is saying.

brahma

Were you not the one who said Muslims have the unjust advantage of special laws? I presented those examples to show you that you were being unduly concerned. The hindus have tons of laws of their own.

Dont compare apples to oranges. Anyone with a basic understanding of their function and methods know that the BD is not just a fundamentalist religious organisation. It is a terrorist organisation. They hold training camps and provide weapons and systematic training to their supporters. <a href="http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/20000630/ifr30005.html" target="_blank">(The Indian Express)</a>. They have been responsible for innumerable murders and have been featured in international human rights documents for their special cold bloodedness. You are right, in the US they would not have been banned. They would have been captured, tried and executed.

You have heard it frequently because it is true. I dont see a response.

This is the only bit in your post that makes any sense to me. Hate christianity by all means. All I can say is join the crowd. But dont for one second assume that this means hinduism is any better. It is just as polluted, just as vile and is, IMO even more capricious. It has been a cause for human suffering that may rival even christianity, and thats saying a lot.

I have read that thread with much interest. Since when has the ordinary anybody been an authority? The ordinary American believes in a foolish fairytale about a wrathful god and a virgin mother. Does that mean he is right? Havent you heard, "the masses are asses".

The aforementioned thread has done much to miseducate people who are not aware of the facts. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and I applaud you for presenting your reasoning so exhaustively. I will respond as time permits.

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: brahma ]</p>

Dr Theo

In terms of how God fits into the new political climate, I can recommend the essay I myself wrote at: <a href="http://www.geocities.com/johnnormansp/nextstep/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/johnnormansp/nextstep/</a>
A pertinent discussion group is also here in "Miscellaneous Religious Discussions"-- "Jehovah and the War on Terrorism."
See you there!

John Norman

hinduwoman

You are confusing quality of laws with quantity. Besides, we hindus don't want to have special laws of our own. We want every citizen of India to be brought under one common law, so that all can be genuinely equal. As it stands today, a hindu wife is far more legally priveleged than a muslim wife. I suspect that some of the stories I read about muslim girls marrying hindus and converting to hinduism is actually a result of this rather than about the power of love and common humanity as they are portrayed. Moreover, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, all follow the same laws as Hindus.

The evils of hinduism are not the issue because everyone agrees on them. The problem is that Islam is not allowed to be criticized. Whether it is about their treatment of non muslims or women any criticism is decried as fascism with endless repeations that Islam is all about equality, brother hood and love. 1989 Education circular of West Bengal actually read that all references to Muslims destroying temples are to be deleted. Today 'secular' historians, no doubt, ably paid by oilmoney, are busy writing that there are only
isolated examples of temple destruction and these were done for political reasons.
Oh yes, The V.P. singh government actually asked the sahi imam to issue fatwas for muslims to vote for them --- but for some reason that was not communal but example of his robust secularism. Why will hindus put up with this?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by brahma:


I have read that thread with much interest. Since when has the ordinary anybody been an authority? The ordinary American believes in a foolish fairytale about a wrathful god and a virgin mother. Does that mean he is right? Havent you heard, "the masses are asses".
__________________________________________________

Irrelevant, as Seven of Nine would say. If you call a black Creationist nigger, would it mean his complaint would not be vaild?
Besides I can also easily say that you are just an ordinary man and therefore not worth listening to.

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The aforementioned thread has done much to miseducate people who are not aware of the facts.
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Fine do your research and then present your facts.

hinduwoman

You said in USA the Bajrang Dal would have been tried and executed.
Do you mean the way the US government tries and executes and bans the anti-abortion groups that bomb abortion clinics?

(Late response, but I only thought of it yesterday!)