HelenM

That might be true of Christians you know.

However, most of the ones I know do kindnesses because they want to both be kind to other people and please God in doing so. They don't do it to get to heaven. They do want to alleviate distress.

While it is true that most of the Christians I know don't believe that kindnesses will either get them to heaven, nor will not doing them cause them to lose their salvation, it is not correct to assume that therefore they don't care how they behave. They do very much want to behave in ways that please God.

Anyway I am all in favor of people being encouraged to be kind to one another, regardless of the reasons. (I mean, regardless, as long as it is genuine kindness and not simply some appearance of kindness which is really intended simply to manipulate a gullible person, for the selfish benefit of the one appearing to be kind...)

love
Helen

Stephen T-B

I left something out, Wildernesse:
Some Christians perform kindnesses in order to make converts.
Religious orders are good at this: they open hostels for the deprived and the depraved who are required, in return for bed and board, to pray and sing hymns and listen to sermons.
In much Christian giving there is an ulterior motive: to make converts and thus score Brownie points for the hereafter.
If a Christian were to help me and require nothing of me, then I would be as glad of that help as I would if it had been offered by a rationalist. But if it were accompanied by a sermon or even a hint that I might “try” going to church, I would feel I had been used, and resent it deeply.

wildernesse

How would you feel if, upon your asking the reason for kindness, you were told by the person that she feels that she is called to doing so by her religion. Would that constitute a sermon for you?

--tiba

Stephen T-B

No.
But I might be a little bit sad; I'd like to have thought the kindness was done for me as a person and not from a sense of obligation.

HelenM

Yes, but what if Christians have several motives? Surely you'd expect them to hope that you might come to see the truth as they understand it...and surely you'd expect that they'd hope God is pleased when they do as they believe He would like them to do...but why must it be either/or - that if they have those hopes that means those are their only reasons for being kind to you? Why could they not have those hopes I just described AND care about you as a person and want to be kind to you?

love
Helen

brighid

I think it is difficult to separate our own selfish motives for helping others from the mix of reasons any person does such things. If we all practiced reciprocity without the expectation of return and this was the modus operandi for all people perhaps such things wouldn’t always seem self-serving.

I don’t think that those who desire to gain favor with their God are necessarily bad for doing so, or those who help another because it makes them feel good about themselves, etc.

I suppose that the greatest acts of kindness are those done without expectation of any outside benefit, but simply because it was (or is) the right thing to do. Somehow that act gets tainted in degrees when one learns that it was done to gain favor with another person, deity or even out of pity. So, in a way the motivation behind the act (regardless of a persons religious persuasion) does have an affect on the nature of the gift or act.

If a Christian person acts kindly or does the right thing without thought of Gods favor, or even how it makes the other person feel wouldn’t that be the highest act of love?

It’s quite a fine line I think … but for those Christians (whom we have seen here) who make the suggestion of love, tolerance and kindness not because they actually love someone, are actually tolerant of them or feel the human being is deserving of kindness … well, it’s a bit condescending and disingenuous. It’s not real, it’s forced upon by the expectations of appearance in order to seem “true.”

Genuine people act well because they are tolerant, understanding, respectful, loving and kind (like you Helen) and do so because it is their nature. And although they will gain favor within their community, or with their God, or with the person they act kindly toward I don’t think that is their real motivation. I try to do that because I gain a deep, personal satisfaction knowing I did the right thing even if it was difficult, and when it so often goes unappreciated. I don’t expect return and when that kindness is returned it just makes the act sweeter.

Brighid

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

Pitshade

Off to Misc. Religion...

GeoTheo

I would disagree on two counts. One is that statement is heretical to the vast majority of Christianity. It is called the Pelagian heresey that one can earn favor with God through good works. Second, any kindness done with ulterior motives is not really kindness.

Stephen T-B

Helen said I should expect Christians to hope that I might come to see the truth as they understand it. I do. It’s the reason, as I understand it, why they proselytise. What I object to is if my acceptance of their ‘message of salvation” is a quid pro quo for the kind act that has been bestowed upon me.

Helen’s second point: “surely you'd expect that they'd hope God is pleased when they do as they believe He would like them to do” seems to conform to GeoTheo’s definition of the Pelagian Heresy, which I must confess I’d not heard of.
He says it’s the belief that one can earn favour with God through good works.
(The Muslims, I’ve been told by one, are instructed that that is the case.)
The fact is, people who are in desperate need won’t care a fig about the motives of the person who helps them, and may well, cynically, go along with meeting any requirements - such as to pray, sing hymns and listen to sermons - which are demanded in return. So then we have a case of mutual exploitation: the giver exploiting the needy and the needy exploiting the giver.
I think that’s squalid.
The real debt which is incurred when someone performs a kindness falls upon the giver, not the receiver.
When a beggar receives your money, you ought, in justice, say “thank you.”
Thank you for giving me the chance to do something which has made me feel good about myself (and may be, please god. at the same time.)

HelenM

Stephen

The Pelagian heresy is the belief that good works can earn you salvation i.e. heaven instead of hell. Protestants believe in 'salvation by grace' i.e. you cannot earn it; it is a gift of God to all who believe Jesus died for their sins - see Ephesians 2.

It's orthodox (small 'o' ) to believe that God is pleased when Christians do 'good works' and it's orthodox to believe God will reward them (not necessarily in this life).

But it's heretical to believe that such 'good works' can earn anyone entrance into heaven i.e. salvation.

I hope that clarifies what conservative Christians believe, a little.

I'm afraid I don't know what quid pro quo means...

love
Helen