Freethought & Rationalism Archive

02-17-2003, 04:50 PM

to andy_d

[b[ Seraphim: What makes you think that Western Buddhists would want to hear a non-Buddhist university proffessor tell them about Buddhism?

Don't you think we'd rather hear about it from a Buddhist? ie: someone who actually knows what they're talking about [/b]

My reply : Who you are hearing it from is not important, it is what you make out of what you hear is.

In that context, which do you think will carry more weight in your society -
A word of a man who abandon all and have nothing but his practise to guide him (he may not even have PH.d)
OR
someone who has Masters in Theist studies and well-known in society? You choose.

Yes, of course Buddhism is studied by academics in univeristies. All religions and philosphies are. But that's all they are, academics who study a particular field as an intellectual curiosity.

My reply : Yet, it is this academic studies which seems to be influencing your society more than actual dharma itself.

Would you expect a professor of aerodynamics to be able to teach you how to fly a fighter plane? No, you'd find a fighter pilot to teach you.

My question : If a person is not willing to take trouble of learning the hard way how to fly a plane and simply wants to know the theory on, will he bother to go to see a fighter pilot or a professor in Aerodynamics?

In the end, it will simply be the intention of the pupil PLUS the available resource at hand to learn something.

As you know, to Buddhists dharma is not just an intellectual trinket, as it is to an academic. Academics have no actual experience of the practice, so there understanding is very, very limited. They just like to collect pretty words and fancy concepts.

My reply : Pretty words and fancy concepts is a waste of time ... it will not show you any truth, and can be misleading as well.

I really don't know where you got such a big misconception from.

My reply : By comparing my society and yours. It doesn't look very misconception to me.

BTW: You are incorrect when you say "No-one invited Buddhism to the west" In my lineage for example, the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa specifically instructed some of his students to spread dharma in the west, and they have worked tirelessly to do so.

My reply : Gyalwa who? Never heard of him ...
In my opinion, taking dharma to a society which is not ready for it is same as treating it as religion.
What is the difference now between Buddhism and Christianity? Both had missionaries which bring the "good news" to the people.

By Waning Moon Conrad

Seraphim,

There really and truly are many Buddhists here in the west who are Westerners, who practice within a lineage, who study seriously, who practice with diligence, who take their teachers seriously and carry the Dharma in their hearts.

There are plenty of idiots in the Dharma scene too but there are plenty of serious people who are genuine Buddhists.

If you met them, you'd probably agree with me.

Some academics are practitioners too.

My reply : Yes, I don't need to come all the way to the West to know that ... there are plenty of such people (good and bad) here to prove your point.

The bottom line is, in the end, how they practise what they learnt is what makes them differ from each other. Regular people with families will follow Buddhism to a certain level only, more hardcore types will abandon everything to follow path of Buddhism.

andy_d · 02-18-2003, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim

In that context, which do you think will carry more weight in your society -
A word of a man who abandon all and have nothing but his practise to guide him (he may not even have PH.d)
OR
someone who has Masters in Theist studies and well-known in society? You choose.

I already have chosen, as have all the sangha.

We choose to listen to those who know what they are talking about, whether they have letters after their name or not.

How can you think so little of westerners that you think they are incapable of making a simple and obvious choice like this?

I ask you, do you think you are better than a westerner? From your posts, it seems you quite obviously do.

02-18-2003, 04:22 PM

by andy_d

I already have chosen, as have all the sangha.

My reply : Sangha? Which one? One in the East or the one in the West?
BTW, I asked which carried more weight in your society - a person with degrees or a simple person with nothing.

We choose to listen to those who know what they are talking about, whether they have letters after their name or not.

My reply : And how sure will you be that what this people you choose to listen to actually speak what is right?

Example : Go to teenagers in your society and tell him that premarital sex, alcholol and drugs are bad for them, do you think they will listen?

How can you think so little of westerners that you think they are incapable of making a simple and obvious choice like this?

My reply : From what I see of your society, and the effect of such lifestyle has in Eastern cultures.

Even in my country, people whom I have met who had studied and return from West pay very little attention to their own culture and heritage. They make excuse such as that such values is no use and out-dated and it is one of the reasons why Eastern societies is still behind in terms of technology and science (as if both of this will ensure a peaceful life).

Take your own society for example. Compare crime rate, social mishaps, breakdowns in family instutitions etc and don't you think there is something wrong with it?

Yes ... the East also have such problems, I admit. But the level of increase is not as alarming as that of your society in the West.

I ask you, do you think you are better than a westerner? From your posts, it seems you quite obviously do.

My reply : Yes, I do think such.

andy_d · 02-19-2003, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim

BTW, I asked which carried more weight in your society - a person with degrees or a simple person with nothing.

And I answered you. People seek the right teacher for the right situation. Having a degree does not make you a good teacher of dharma. That holds true wherever you are.

Your misconception that westerners will only bother to listen to those with academic qualifications is not based on reality. I don't really know where you got such an idea from.

Quote:

I ask you, do you think you are better than a westerner? From your posts, it seems you quite obviously do.

My reply : Yes, I do think such.

Why do you allow yourself to follow your pride in this way? It's not the Buddhist path to do so

02-19-2003, 05:23 PM

And I answered you. People seek the right teacher for the right situation. Having a degree does not make you a good teacher of dharma. That holds true wherever you are.

Your misconception that westerners will only bother to listen to those with academic qualifications is not based on reality. I don't really know where you got such an idea from.

My reply : Sorry ... I believe you didn't understand my question. I asked what qualification is a person sees if he is to choose a right teacher.

In more simpler question - What is the qualification of a Right teacher for Dharma? And while you at it, What is the Right situation which you mentioned above?

Yes, having a degree doesn't make you a good teacher in Dharma, but it does carry some weight (compared to a person without a degree) when you say something in public. I believe this too holds true whereever you go.

Why do you allow yourself to follow your pride in this way? It's not the Buddhist path to do so

My reply : Answer(s) is simple, actually ...

1. I never said I was a Buddhist and I don't believe that a person have to be a Buddhist in order to state something about it. I seek answers and answers usually don't come from one source alone.

IF you think this is not true, then you have to go and stop each and everyone here who is an Atheist, Deist or whatever from posting about Christianity, Islam etc because they are not from that group.

2. Having pride is not a sin, allowing it to control you is. I'm trying to reduce my own pride but I do have pride in my heritage and culture. Maybe in the near future, I could reduce it even more, like I did with my state of anger.

3. And what is a Buddhist way? I believe this is the 4th time it came out in this column, and 4th time I asked. For me, to know myself is a Buddhist way (even if I'm may not be a Buddhist), what about you? What do you consider as Buddhist way?

andy_d · 02-20-2003, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim

In more simpler question - What is the qualification of a Right teacher for Dharma?

Someone who is a senior practioner. Someone who has a great deal of experience and knowledge and is able to communicate this effectively.

In short, someone who can give students the skills, knowledge and inspiration they require. Nothing else is important.

Quote:

What do you consider as Buddhist way?

To apply dharma to your life. Most people would also expect someone who refers to themselves as Buddhist to meditate regularly.

If you say you are not a Buddhist yourself, what makes you think Buddhists will be interested in your criticisms of them? If you don't have experience of their situation, your understanding will be somewhat limited compared to theirs.

We have a saying in English.

"Before criticising another, you should walk a mile in their shoes"

As you say, there is nothing unusual about having pride. We are all afflicted by it to a greater or lesser degree. However, it is allowing yourself to follow your disturbing emotions which causes trouble for you.

There are several different approaches to dealing with your mind poisons, but none of them involves inflicting them upon others.

02-20-2003, 04:05 PM

Someone who is a senior practioner. Someone who has a great deal of experience and knowledge and is able to communicate this effectively.

In short, someone who can give students the skills, knowledge and inspiration they require. Nothing else is important.

My reply : In that case, those books don't matter, will it?

To apply dharma to your life. Most people would also expect someone who refers to themselves as Buddhist to meditate regularly.

My reply : A way of religion ...
Someone told me that the way of Christianity is to pray regularly and apply what stated in Bible in their daily lives as well ... don't seems to be much differ from here.

If you say you are not a Buddhist yourself, what makes you think Buddhists will be interested in your criticisms of them? If you don't have experience of their situation, your understanding will be somewhat limited compared to theirs.

My reply : Limited? Mu understanding is better than yours because I lived in society where there is various degrees of practising the same teaching. There are normal people (with families) who follow Buddhism like a religion, there are some who calls themselves Buddhism but never both about its values, there are some who leaves everything to follow Buddha's path to find his or her. In short, my understanding is more wider than yours.

We have a saying in English.

"Before criticising another, you should walk a mile in their shoes"

My reply : There is an old saying in Malaysia as well :
"Jale sedepa, lautan dalam jangan diduga"

Translation : Don't try to challenge the ocean if all you have is a small net.

Meaning : My understandings (by reading and interacting with other Buddhist and non-Buddhist since their views are important as well) is what makes me comment about Buddhism. I believe that is sufficient ... don't you?

As you say, there is nothing unusual about having pride. We are all afflicted by it to a greater or lesser degree. However, it is allowing yourself to follow your disturbing emotions which causes trouble for you.

My reply : Trouble? What trouble? I don't see any trouble in having pride in my heritage and background ... I'm an Asian by general, Malaysian by birth ... what's wrong in saying that loud?

There are several different approaches to dealing with your mind poisons, but none of them involves inflicting them upon others.

My reply : Anything is a poison and anything is a cure, it is not who that inflicting it that matters, it is who is getting inflicted by it. If you think my pride is a poison to you, I cannot do anything about it.

Dr Rick · 02-20-2003, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bagong
I'd like to know what type of "research" can reveal the effects of meditation, which are purely internal psychological...The idea that everyone can and should meditate is a 20th century Western one that I strongly disagree with.

Meditation has been shown through clinical research to positively impact chronic pain states, insomnia, anxiety, irritable bowel syndrome, hypertension, and fibromyalgia. Physiologically, the meditative state is characterized by slowing of respiratory and heart rates and by less complex dynamics of EEG patterns and decreased autonomic orienting to external stimulation distinctly different from sleep period EEGs. Frequent meditators report less sick time from school or work and less depression. It is a safe practice with demonstratable positive effects and no inherent risks.

Rick

02-20-2003, 06:07 PM

Meditation has been shown through clinical research to positively impact chronic pain states, insomnia, anxiety, irritable bowel syndrome, hypertension, and fibromyalgia. Physiologically, the meditative state is characterized by slowing of respiratory and heart rates and by less complex dynamics of EEG patterns and decreased autonomic orienting to external stimulation distinctly different from sleep period EEGs. Frequent meditators report less sick time from school or work and less depression. It is a safe practice with demonstratable positive effects and no inherent risks.

My reply : Hmmm ..... Sounds like a better alternative "treatment" for some serious problems ... including Depression, compared to drugs.

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02-17-2003, 04:50 PM	#21
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	to andy_d [b[ Seraphim: What makes you think that Western Buddhists would want to hear a non-Buddhist university proffessor tell them about Buddhism? Don't you think we'd rather hear about it from a Buddhist? ie: someone who actually knows what they're talking about [/b] My reply : Who you are hearing it from is not important, it is what you make out of what you hear is. In that context, which do you think will carry more weight in your society - A word of a man who abandon all and have nothing but his practise to guide him (he may not even have PH.d) OR someone who has Masters in Theist studies and well-known in society? You choose. Yes, of course Buddhism is studied by academics in univeristies. All religions and philosphies are. But that's all they are, academics who study a particular field as an intellectual curiosity. My reply : Yet, it is this academic studies which seems to be influencing your society more than actual dharma itself. Would you expect a professor of aerodynamics to be able to teach you how to fly a fighter plane? No, you'd find a fighter pilot to teach you. My question : If a person is not willing to take trouble of learning the hard way how to fly a plane and simply wants to know the theory on, will he bother to go to see a fighter pilot or a professor in Aerodynamics? In the end, it will simply be the intention of the pupil PLUS the available resource at hand to learn something. As you know, to Buddhists dharma is not just an intellectual trinket, as it is to an academic. Academics have no actual experience of the practice, so there understanding is very, very limited. They just like to collect pretty words and fancy concepts. My reply : Pretty words and fancy concepts is a waste of time ... it will not show you any truth, and can be misleading as well. I really don't know where you got such a big misconception from. My reply : By comparing my society and yours. It doesn't look very misconception to me. BTW: You are incorrect when you say "No-one invited Buddhism to the west" In my lineage for example, the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa specifically instructed some of his students to spread dharma in the west, and they have worked tirelessly to do so. My reply : Gyalwa who? Never heard of him ... In my opinion, taking dharma to a society which is not ready for it is same as treating it as religion. What is the difference now between Buddhism and Christianity? Both had missionaries which bring the "good news" to the people. By Waning Moon Conrad Seraphim, There really and truly are many Buddhists here in the west who are Westerners, who practice within a lineage, who study seriously, who practice with diligence, who take their teachers seriously and carry the Dharma in their hearts. There are plenty of idiots in the Dharma scene too but there are plenty of serious people who are genuine Buddhists. If you met them, you'd probably agree with me. Some academics are practitioners too. My reply : Yes, I don't need to come all the way to the West to know that ... there are plenty of such people (good and bad) here to prove your point. The bottom line is, in the end, how they practise what they learnt is what makes them differ from each other. Regular people with families will follow Buddhism to a certain level only, more hardcore types will abandon everything to follow path of Buddhism.

02-18-2003, 04:22 PM	#23
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	by andy_d I already have chosen, as have all the sangha. My reply : Sangha? Which one? One in the East or the one in the West? BTW, I asked which carried more weight in your society - a person with degrees or a simple person with nothing. We choose to listen to those who know what they are talking about, whether they have letters after their name or not. My reply : And how sure will you be that what this people you choose to listen to actually speak what is right? Example : Go to teenagers in your society and tell him that premarital sex, alcholol and drugs are bad for them, do you think they will listen? How can you think so little of westerners that you think they are incapable of making a simple and obvious choice like this? My reply : From what I see of your society, and the effect of such lifestyle has in Eastern cultures. Even in my country, people whom I have met who had studied and return from West pay very little attention to their own culture and heritage. They make excuse such as that such values is no use and out-dated and it is one of the reasons why Eastern societies is still behind in terms of technology and science (as if both of this will ensure a peaceful life). Take your own society for example. Compare crime rate, social mishaps, breakdowns in family instutitions etc and don't you think there is something wrong with it? Yes ... the East also have such problems, I admit. But the level of increase is not as alarming as that of your society in the West. I ask you, do you think you are better than a westerner? From your posts, it seems you quite obviously do. My reply : Yes, I do think such.

02-19-2003, 05:23 PM	#25
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	And I answered you. People seek the right teacher for the right situation. Having a degree does not make you a good teacher of dharma. That holds true wherever you are. Your misconception that westerners will only bother to listen to those with academic qualifications is not based on reality. I don't really know where you got such an idea from. My reply : Sorry ... I believe you didn't understand my question. I asked what qualification is a person sees if he is to choose a right teacher. In more simpler question - What is the qualification of a Right teacher for Dharma? And while you at it, What is the Right situation which you mentioned above? Yes, having a degree doesn't make you a good teacher in Dharma, but it does carry some weight (compared to a person without a degree) when you say something in public. I believe this too holds true whereever you go. Why do you allow yourself to follow your pride in this way? It's not the Buddhist path to do so My reply : Answer(s) is simple, actually ... 1. I never said I was a Buddhist and I don't believe that a person have to be a Buddhist in order to state something about it. I seek answers and answers usually don't come from one source alone. IF you think this is not true, then you have to go and stop each and everyone here who is an Atheist, Deist or whatever from posting about Christianity, Islam etc because they are not from that group. 2. Having pride is not a sin, allowing it to control you is. I'm trying to reduce my own pride but I do have pride in my heritage and culture. Maybe in the near future, I could reduce it even more, like I did with my state of anger. 3. And what is a Buddhist way? I believe this is the 4th time it came out in this column, and 4th time I asked. For me, to know myself is a Buddhist way (even if I'm may not be a Buddhist), what about you? What do you consider as Buddhist way?

02-20-2003, 04:05 PM	#27
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	Someone who is a senior practioner. Someone who has a great deal of experience and knowledge and is able to communicate this effectively. In short, someone who can give students the skills, knowledge and inspiration they require. Nothing else is important. My reply : In that case, those books don't matter, will it? To apply dharma to your life. Most people would also expect someone who refers to themselves as Buddhist to meditate regularly. My reply : A way of religion ... Someone told me that the way of Christianity is to pray regularly and apply what stated in Bible in their daily lives as well ... don't seems to be much differ from here. If you say you are not a Buddhist yourself, what makes you think Buddhists will be interested in your criticisms of them? If you don't have experience of their situation, your understanding will be somewhat limited compared to theirs. My reply : Limited? Mu understanding is better than yours because I lived in society where there is various degrees of practising the same teaching. There are normal people (with families) who follow Buddhism like a religion, there are some who calls themselves Buddhism but never both about its values, there are some who leaves everything to follow Buddha's path to find his or her. In short, my understanding is more wider than yours. We have a saying in English. "Before criticising another, you should walk a mile in their shoes" My reply : There is an old saying in Malaysia as well : "Jale sedepa, lautan dalam jangan diduga" Translation : Don't try to challenge the ocean if all you have is a small net. Meaning : My understandings (by reading and interacting with other Buddhist and non-Buddhist since their views are important as well) is what makes me comment about Buddhism. I believe that is sufficient ... don't you? As you say, there is nothing unusual about having pride. We are all afflicted by it to a greater or lesser degree. However, it is allowing yourself to follow your disturbing emotions which causes trouble for you. My reply : Trouble? What trouble? I don't see any trouble in having pride in my heritage and background ... I'm an Asian by general, Malaysian by birth ... what's wrong in saying that loud? There are several different approaches to dealing with your mind poisons, but none of them involves inflicting them upon others. My reply : Anything is a poison and anything is a cure, it is not who that inflicting it that matters, it is who is getting inflicted by it. If you think my pride is a poison to you, I cannot do anything about it.

02-20-2003, 06:07 PM	#29
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	Meditation has been shown through clinical research to positively impact chronic pain states, insomnia, anxiety, irritable bowel syndrome, hypertension, and fibromyalgia. Physiologically, the meditative state is characterized by slowing of respiratory and heart rates and by less complex dynamics of EEG patterns and decreased autonomic orienting to external stimulation distinctly different from sleep period EEGs. Frequent meditators report less sick time from school or work and less depression. It is a safe practice with demonstratable positive effects and no inherent risks. My reply : Hmmm ..... Sounds like a better alternative "treatment" for some serious problems ... including Depression, compared to drugs.

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