Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kuu · 06-21-2003, 04:38 PM

Quote:

And how did the first Hummingbird know it should migrate at all ? How did such behavior evolve ?

The bird felt cold and decided to do something about it? Like see if it could find a warmer place.

Arken · 06-21-2003, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daniel Erickson
How did animals' seeming psychic abilities evolve

They didn't. There's no such thing as psychic abilities. Next.

Shpongle · 06-21-2003, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daniel Erickson
(2) How did animals' seeming psychic abilities evolve ? Certain sea turtles travel to the exact same nesting spots, on the exact same little islands, year after year. They do this by swimming across vast ocean distances, all the while barely able to see over the waves. How did this amazing ability evolve from nowhere ?

Don't sea turtles homing instincts rely on the magnetic field of the Earth (ala birds)?

Minnesota · 06-21-2003, 09:47 PM

Magnetic Fields Guide Turtle Hatchlings across the Ocean and Back

Most people wouldn't attempt a transoceanic voyage without the aid of a map, compass, GPS or at least a keen ability to navigate using the sun and stars�even if they had made the trip several times before. Baby sea turtles, however, embark on just such a journey all by themselves shortly after hatching. Scientists have long wondered exactly how the creatures find their way across the Atlantic ocean and back during their first migration. Now findings reported today in the journal Science provide the strongest evidence yet that the young turtles possess a built-in compass, enabling them to chart their course according to the earth's magnetic field.

Previous studies, led by Kenneth J. Lohmann of the University of North Carolina, had shown that hatchling loggerhead turtles can detect features of magnetic fields known as inclination angle and field intensity. The new research, conducted by Lohmann and his colleagues, demonstrates that this information can elicit changes in the swimming direction of migrating Florida loggerheads that keep them on track. On track, for these turtles, means following a warm, food-rich current system known as the North Atlantic gyre.

From:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...82809EC588ED9F

gravitybow · 06-22-2003, 12:14 AM

Angiosperms, or flowering plants, didn�t arise until about 130 MYA during the Cretaceous period. The oldest known angiosperm is a fossilized water flower that lived in China around 125 MYA. It didn�t have any petals. The oldest known wasp, ancestor to the bee, dates back to 116 MYA, but the first wasps could have arisen as early as the Jurassic. The oldest bee fossil comes from the Upper Cretaceous at 80 MYA.

Now that we have a general time frame for when each player enters the picture, how about looking at how this co-evolutionary (symbiotic) relationship began?
From The Biogeography of a Solitary Bee :

Quote:

The order Hymenoptera contains insects known as bees, wasps, ants, sawflies, and horntails. Insects are thought to have appeared sometime during the Devonian, but the fossil record does not really begin in until the Upper Carboniferous (Boudreaux 1979). Given the vast number of insect species that exist today (they far outnumber all other species combined), and the sparse insect fossil record, it is difficult to assign ancestry to a fossil specimen (Boudreaux 1979). Such is the case for bees. Bees evolved from solitary wasps sometime during the Cretaceous period (76 million to 146 million years ago (O�Neill 2001; O�Toole 1991). Wasps all belong to the suborder Apocrita, as do bees, but it was from an ancestor of one distinct family of wasps, Sphecidae, under the superfamily Apoidea, that over 20,000 species of bees descended (O�Neill 2001). This evolution, from wasp to bee, was characterized by a change in feeding behavior. Bees feed on pollen and nectar, and wasps, for the most part, feed on insect prey.

That covers bees from wasps generally, but you asked about bees and flowers:

Quote:

Bee-like behavior only became possible during the Cretaceous period when the first true flowering plants appeared (O�Toole 1991). Malyshev hypothesized in 1968 that true bees evolved from ancestors of the sphecid genus Psenulus (O�Toole 1991). This genus of wasp feeds on honeydew, a sweet substance excreted by aphids, and they feed the aphids themselves to their larvae (Malyshev 1968: 284-285; O�Toole 1991: 20). The idea is that Psenuloid wasp ancestors must have begun to eat these sweet substances as well, and this was a precursor to the eventual development of wasps that began to feed on pollen (Malyshev 1968: 286). It follows that as some wasps began to feed on pollen and left behind their carnivorous ways, thus becoming bees, they began to have an effect on flowering plants (O�Toole 1991). Plants with flowers that were attractive to bees were more likely to proliferate and diverge due to reproduction through cross-pollination (O�Toole 1991). Thus, a coevolutionary process was begun and bees and flowers began to adapt and change in relation to each other.

Your statement:

Quote:

Daniel Erickson
(1) The theory of evolution is stumped by the existence of symbiotic relationships. There is the well-known case of bees and flowers.

False.
In the course of an evening, I found many sites that aided my understanding of the evolution of wasps, bees, and flowers, and the above was just one of many on the Internet. I�m sure a good library would yield even more detailed information. In fact, I repeatedly came across references to a book by entomologist Charles D. Michener called "The Bees of the World," which won the Association of American Publishers R.R. Hawkins Award for 2000, an annual award given for an outstanding professional, reference or scholarly work published by one of the association's members.

Quote:

From The University of Kansas, Office of University Relations:
Michener is distinguished professor emeritus of ecology and evolutionary biology and curator emeritus of insects for the KU Natural History Museum and Biodiversity Research Center. He is one of only two Kansans who belong to the prestigious National Academy of Sciences, a private society of distinguished scholars chartered by the U.S. Congress in 1863 to advise the federal government on scientific and technical matters. The other is Tom Taylor, KU professor of ecology and evolutionary biology.

In extensive introductory sections, Michener examines the evolution of wasps to bees; the relationship of the families of bees to one another; the relationship of bees to flowering plants; the nesting behavior of solitary and social bees; and the structure of immature and adult bees.

Sounds like a good place to start, to me.

Daniel, the only reason you, not the theory of evolution, are stumped by this symbiotic relationship is because you haven�t taken the time to look up any of the information. Someone else told you this was a stumper, and now you're presenting it here. Please, this isn�t a personal attack. I�m pointing out that, before you started this thread, I didn�t know much about bees and flowers either. But I�ve spent a few hours surfing the Net and the basic information is out there, certainly enough to answer the question adequately and point the way to in-depth sources. So why not read some of the researchers who have done the hard work for you? It�s one thing to ask a question out of a genuine desire for knowledge, and quite another to throw it down as some mind-bending stumper when it isn't. That�s just arrogance.

You are also dead wrong when you say, �No flowers, no bees. No bees, no flowers.�
Pollinators include beetles and weevils, moths and butterflies, wasps (Masaridae), birds, wind, water (Some flowers grow completely submerged. I don�t think bees swim, yet.), and flowers that are self-pollinating (such as dandelions). There is no denying that a powerful symbiotic relationship has developed over time bringing bees to the forefront of pollinators and causing the explosive radiation of diverse flowering plants. But that is a far cry from saying that this is an exclusive, self-contained relationship, and that the disappearance of one means the extinction of the other.

gravitybow · 06-22-2003, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr Rick
How does Complexity Arise in Evolution

Hit the link for a nice pdf.

Ouch, Dr. Rick! That font is pretty hard on the eyes, especially at 2:00 am.

06-22-2003, 12:52 AM

gravitybow (Veteran User):

"Please, this isn�t a personal attack.... I�m pointing out that..., That�s just arrogance."

That is absolutley right, gravitybow. You are not attacking me personally. You are just calling me ARROGANT. Don't stop now. Call me STUPID, IGNORANT and COWARDLY too. No one in his right mind would see that as a personal attack......

Kuu · 06-22-2003, 01:35 AM

^^^ Aren't you being a little over-sensitive.

I have said some stupid things in this forum at times but I have never been attack for them in any manner or form. This is because I don't state my ideas as being fact just as possibilities, or as questions. I ask questions because I want to know - you state facts as if you only want to prove people wrong.

You stated something you obviously didn't have knowledge of as a fact

Quote:

However, evolutionary theory has a number of holes. For example:

Quote:

(1) The theory of evolution is stumped by the existence of symbiotic relationships. There is the well-known case of bees and flowers.

The three examples you gave as examples of holes in the theory were not holes at all. In just a few hours on a bulletin board you received some very reasonable evidence that your facts were wrong. The three examples you gave don't seem to be stumping anyone with a little knowledge of science.

Quote:

"Please, this isn�t a personal attack.... I�m pointing out that..., That�s just arrogance."

Quoting GravityBow like this is very bad-mannered. You have taken words out of his/her paragraph and put the together to show them in a different way than what was intended.

keyser_soze · 06-22-2003, 03:16 AM

I should think that was the intended goal of the statement Kuu. Nothing like redirecting and playing the victim when your argument fails so miserably. Straying a little far off the beaten path Daniel? Hunting expeditions aren't as much fun when the prey bites back are they? Go back and report that the argument was dismissed quite rapidly, and they need to come up with something better, or try hunting amongst a lower IQ population. Obviously you need to not read as much AIG, as the stuff is crap.

06-22-2003, 03:16 AM

Kuu notes: "Quoting GravityBow like this is very bad-mannered. You have taken words out of his/her paragraph and put the together to show them in a different way than what was intended."

Wow, this is the first time I have ever been lectured by a Tasmanian !! By the way, "Daniel Erickson" is my real name. Unlike some people, I do not hide behind a made-up screen name. What do you think about that, Kuu ?????

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06-21-2003, 09:47 PM	#14
Minnesota Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 172	Magnetic Fields Guide Turtle Hatchlings across the Ocean and Back Most people wouldn't attempt a transoceanic voyage without the aid of a map, compass, GPS or at least a keen ability to navigate using the sun and stars�even if they had made the trip several times before. Baby sea turtles, however, embark on just such a journey all by themselves shortly after hatching. Scientists have long wondered exactly how the creatures find their way across the Atlantic ocean and back during their first migration. Now findings reported today in the journal Science provide the strongest evidence yet that the young turtles possess a built-in compass, enabling them to chart their course according to the earth's magnetic field. Previous studies, led by Kenneth J. Lohmann of the University of North Carolina, had shown that hatchling loggerhead turtles can detect features of magnetic fields known as inclination angle and field intensity. The new research, conducted by Lohmann and his colleagues, demonstrates that this information can elicit changes in the swimming direction of migrating Florida loggerheads that keep them on track. On track, for these turtles, means following a warm, food-rich current system known as the North Atlantic gyre. From: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...82809EC588ED9F

06-22-2003, 12:52 AM	#17
Daniel Erickson Guest Posts: n/a	gravitybow (Veteran User): "Please, this isn�t a personal attack.... I�m pointing out that..., That�s just arrogance." That is absolutley right, gravitybow. You are not attacking me personally. You are just calling me ARROGANT. Don't stop now. Call me STUPID, IGNORANT and COWARDLY too. No one in his right mind would see that as a personal attack......

06-22-2003, 03:16 AM	#19
keyser_soze Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: god's judge (pariah) Posts: 1,281	I should think that was the intended goal of the statement Kuu. Nothing like redirecting and playing the victim when your argument fails so miserably. Straying a little far off the beaten path Daniel? Hunting expeditions aren't as much fun when the prey bites back are they? Go back and report that the argument was dismissed quite rapidly, and they need to come up with something better, or try hunting amongst a lower IQ population. Obviously you need to not read as much AIG, as the stuff is crap.

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