Freethought & Rationalism Archive

10-01-2002, 05:03 PM

Vander, if we all have a choice, then, would athiests go to hell? And if athiests don't go to hell, then why should anyone? If someone kills and murders, but has never heard of Jesus, how should he know killing is wrong, or when it is wrong, or why it is wrong?

There are too many variables for the 2 extremes of heaven or hell.

Autonemesis · 10-01-2002, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
At one level, I agree with one poster here. Hell, as it is commonly called, is not so much a place as it is a choice. In his book, "The Divine Conspiracy", Dallas Willard has said that God will not keep anyone out of heaven who wants to be there--it is a matter of choice.

What if I want to go to Heaven, but I don't want to have anything to do with God when I get there, or while I'm here for that matter? Is this a possible choice? What about choosing simply to avoid eternal torment, regardless of where I end up in the afterlife (for the sake of argument of course)? If I can't make these choices, then in what sense do I have a choice in this scheme of things you are describing?

Quote:

All of us--each and every person--is corrupt.

Compared to... what, exactly? What does corruption mean in this context?

Quote:

Each day we regret some of the things we have done. We have these regrets because we know they are wrong (whether we admit it explicitly, or not). It is upon this basis that God makes his determination.

I don't see the tie-in to corruption, unless you're giving your definition of "corruption", that is "having regrets whether we admit them or not". Is that how I am to understand what you're saying here?

By the way, can I opt out of this determination thing? It all sounds too risky to me. If I can't, then in what sense do I have a choice?

Vanderzyden · 10-02-2002, 01:02 PM

Kind Bud,

I will respond with the types of questions you are asking me:

Quote:

Originally posted by Kind Bud:

What if I want to go to Heaven, but I don't want to have anything to do with God when I get there, or while I'm here for that matter?

What do you know about this Heaven?

From what reliable source did you learn about it?

Quote:

Originally posted by Kind Bud:

By the way, can I opt out of this determination thing? It all sounds too risky to me. If I can't, then in what sense do I have a choice?

Did you have a choice in the circumstances of your birth?

Will you be able to prevent your death?

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:

All of us--each and every person--is corrupt.

Corrupt means:

1 a : to change from good to bad in morals, manners, or actions;
2 : ROT, SPOIL
3 : to alter from the original or correct form or version

No one lives a perfect human life. Each one is immoral, to one degree or another. Not one person fulfills their humanity.

Vanderzyden

daemon · 10-02-2002, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Vanderzyden: No one lives a perfect human life. Each one is immoral, to one degree or another. Not one person fulfills their humanity.

What is a "perfect human life?"
How do you determine whether a person is immoral or not?
What does it mean for a person to "fulfill their humanity?"
Why should we care about your answers?

Autonemesis · 10-02-2002, 02:05 PM

No wait, let me see what teeth I can pull here after all.

Quote:

What do you know about this Heaven?

What do I need to know? The salient feature that interests me is that I would not be dead there.

Quote:

From what reliable source did you learn about it?

Aye, there's the rub. How do you determine which sources are reliable, and which ones aren't?

Quote:

Did you have a choice in the circumstances of your birth?

Nope. But I do have a choice whether to join the military. Once in, my choices are limited, but I don't have to sign up. Is heaven like this?

Quote:

Will you be able to prevent your death?

Doesn't seem likely, but it seems possible that medical science may crack this nut before I die.

Quote:

Corrupt means:

1 a : to change from good to bad in morals, manners, or actions;
2 : ROT, SPOIL
3 : to alter from the original or correct form or version

#1 begs the question. But that's because it is a definition.
#2 seems not to apply until after one's death, or perhaps it might refer to gangrene.
#3 begs a different question - what "original or correct form"?

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]

GeoTheo · 10-02-2002, 04:27 PM

People Go to Hell for being seperated from God.
The way to come to God is through belief in Jesus Christ. So you are looking at it backwards from how we Christians look at it if you say people go to Hell because they are an atheist.
Look at it this way: If there is existence after life it must not be dependant on your physical body. If you are seperated from God before you die and then become separated from your physical body you are shit out of luck totally. You were in sad shape all along but had all this cool stuff around to distract you from the issue at hand. Once that's Gone God is all there is. At this point it is believed you no longer have any hope of getting together. Hope this helps (yeah right.)

10-02-2002, 04:45 PM

Cool stuff? You mean logic and facts?

RJS · 10-02-2002, 04:53 PM

Quote:

You mean logic and facts?

Does logic dictate that there is no God? I would argue otherwise. In other words, everything in our universe has a cause other than the universe itself, therefore it is logical that there is a cause of the universe. Facts don't support the existence of God, or the opinion that the universe "just happened" - such lack of facts is consistent with the Bible, and quite frankly, the fact all of you smart guys haven't figured out First Cause yet is a testament to the Almighty. He is still messing with you. Lay it down already.

Later.

GeoTheo · 10-02-2002, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by himynameisPwn:
Cool stuff? You mean logic and facts?

No, I mean the material world. Assuming a dualistic Universe (Which Christians do) one could
get by in this life to a certian degree whilst being seperated from God, but after death this would no longer be possible and one would be confronted with the fact that they are seperated from God. While alive We have free choice, because God is not visible. After death no such luck. No more time to make nice. We now spend eternity as what we have become in our life.

ex-preacher · 10-02-2002, 05:01 PM

God sends you to hell because he loves you so much that he wants you to have a choice. Ah, you say, "I have looked at the evidence and cannot make myself believe sonthing which I think is untrue." Well, you see God had to make sure there wasn't too much evidence, otherwise you wouldn't have a choice. He loves you soooooo much!

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10-01-2002, 05:03 PM	#21
himynameisPwn Guest Posts: n/a	Vander, if we all have a choice, then, would athiests go to hell? And if athiests don't go to hell, then why should anyone? If someone kills and murders, but has never heard of Jesus, how should he know killing is wrong, or when it is wrong, or why it is wrong? There are too many variables for the 2 extremes of heaven or hell.

10-02-2002, 04:27 PM	#26
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	People Go to Hell for being seperated from God. The way to come to God is through belief in Jesus Christ. So you are looking at it backwards from how we Christians look at it if you say people go to Hell because they are an atheist. Look at it this way: If there is existence after life it must not be dependant on your physical body. If you are seperated from God before you die and then become separated from your physical body you are shit out of luck totally. You were in sad shape all along but had all this cool stuff around to distract you from the issue at hand. Once that's Gone God is all there is. At this point it is believed you no longer have any hope of getting together. Hope this helps (yeah right.)

10-02-2002, 04:45 PM	#27
himynameisPwn Guest Posts: n/a	Cool stuff? You mean logic and facts?

10-02-2002, 05:01 PM	#30
ex-preacher Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: University of Arkansas Posts: 1,033	God sends you to hell because he loves you so much that he wants you to have a choice. Ah, you say, "I have looked at the evidence and cannot make myself believe sonthing which I think is untrue." Well, you see God had to make sure there wasn't too much evidence, otherwise you wouldn't have a choice. He loves you soooooo much!

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