gravitybow

Please, by all means. Just the one where Franklin says...
...will be sufficient. I want to hear Franklin say that in his own words.

gravitybow

(gravitybow dons protective clothing, insulated gloves, and ten-foot wooden pole)

OK, I'm ready. Send the Bartonite my way.

Toto

<a href="http://www.positiveatheism.com/hist/quotes/quote-f1.htm#FRANKLIN" target="_blank">Quotes from Franklin on the Positive Atheism site</a>

Whether Franklin was a Christian or a Deist, or switched back and forth, he clearly did not advocate that the government dictate religious views to anyone. That's what separation of church and state is all about.

Buffman

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
-- Benjamin Franklin (source unknown)

Worthless and propagandistic attribution.

Buffman

Toto

These are the references I have located :

<a href="http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/humanism/86315" target="_blank">http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/humanism/86315</a>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/john_murphy/baptist.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/john_murphy/baptist.html</a>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/~godlessheathen/Founders.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/~godlessheathen/Founders.html</a>

They make the following claim:

"Franklin was a Deist who had written in his book Poor Richard (1758) that “Lighthouses are more helpful than churches” and "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”

I reviewed the 1758 "Poor Richard Improved" at the following URLs and found only the second quote, not the one in question.

<a href="http://www.sage-advice.com/Benjamin_Franklin.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sage-advice.com/Benjamin_Franklin.htm</a>

<a href="http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/loa/bf1758.htm" target="_blank">http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/loa/bf1758.htm</a>

(Extract)
[_I am, as ever, Thine to serve thee,_ _July_ 7, 1757. RICHARD SAUNDERS. ______ ]

"The Way to see by _Faith_, is to shut the Eye of _Reason_: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle."
(End extract)

Then I reviewed the 1757 "Poor Richard Improved" and found the following:

(Extract)
_Learning_ is a valuable Thing in the Affairs of this Life, but of infinitely more Importance is _Godliness_, as it tends not only to make us happy here but hereafter. At the Day of Judgment, we shall not be asked, what Proficiency we have made in Languages or Philosophy; but whether we have liv'd virtuously and piously, as Men endued with Reason, guided by the Dictates of Religion. In that Hour it will more avail us, that we have thrown a Handful of Flour or Chaff in Charity to a Nest of contemptible Pismires, than that we could muster all the Hosts of Heaven, and call every Star by its proper Name. For then the Constellations themselves shall disappear, the Sun and Moon shall give no more Light, and all the Frame of Nature shall vanish. But our good or bad Works shall remain for ever, recorded in the Archives of Eternity.
(End extract)

Obviously a Franklin statement such as this can be interpreted in many ways, depending on one's religious/non-religious agenda.

Bottom line: I have not yet been able to find the “Lighthouses are more helpful than churches” quote that so many non-religious sites/individuals attribute to Franklin. It may be in his autobiography...which is a nightmare read.

gravitybow

Since when have I or Buffman ever said that context doesn't matter? Are you really paying so little attention to what we've said that you've missed our "context matters" concerns?

Tell ya' what: Send the Barton quote on Franklin (lack of atheists) and we'll see if context matters.

Radorth

Ah you know what I'm talking about, so you are getting legalistic. So, if he advertised that there were no atheists in America, and I gave you the quote, you would say "see, he didn't say exactly that." Am I correct? Very clever of you GB.

Re Toto:

He was neither and I never said otherwise.

I never said otherwise. Man some of you guys have trouble seeing anything but black and white. I thought that was a uniquely Christian fault.

Have you forgotten what we are talking about here? Buffman's question:

None of your numerous quotes show Franklin had a low opinion of Jesus. It was blind faith in whatever was preached that offended him, it seems to me. Can you find a quote where he belittles Jesus himself or Jesus' morals, or Jesus' wisdom? In fact in a letter to the French ministry, according to Federer, he basically says the principles of "primitive Christianity" will change the world. Unfortunately, I cannot find a transcript of the letter myself.

Unlike the founders, you are confusing Jesus' teachings, morals and wisdom with the faults of the church. I'm not sure why you steadfastedly refuse to make any distinction. Your worldview would crumble I guess.

Nice try though.

Rad

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Radorth ]</p>

Daggah

What's with the obsession over this? One does not need to have a "low opinion of Jesus" in order to not be a Christian. Hell, I don't have a low opinion of Jesus myself. I readily admit that if Christians actually followed [some of] Jesus's teachings, this world wouldn't be full of Christian-originated bigotry and intolerance.

So what's with the obsession?

Radorth

You mean where he talks about the beliefs he died with like a final judgement, eternal life, that kind of thing? The autobigraphy where he talks about the "wonderful" effect of Whitefield's preaching on the citizens of Philadelphia?

Actually it is short and pointed, but I can see why you would call it a nightmare. It exposes your "one God less than they had" statement for the gratuitous nonsense it is.

Rad

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Radorth ]</p>

Daggah

Also, Radorth, that some of the founding fathers had a positive opinion concerning Christianity as a set of moral teachings does not make those founding fathers Christian. That was, after all, a popular opinion at the time.