Infinity Lover

Now this is where I like to bring in my "potty training" anology. In more than just the litteral sense, we can pottytrain ourselves. We have the ability to surpress natural urges, but isn't there also a limitation to how well we can do that?

I think the human brain is a sophisticated elaboration of a primitive principle. We can end up defending a mere thought as a reflex.

Amie

care to tie that in to the OP somehow?

Infinity Lover

It is why I think our "will" isn't quite as "free" as one would asume. There are limitations (same as there are to everything).

By the way...
But just because that "free will" is subject to limitations, doesn't mean we don't have one. Then you could justs as well say nothing exists, because everything is subject to limitations.

Perhaps that was the reconsiliation of two seemingly contradicting elements Jamie_L was looking for.

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]</p>

wildernesse

Are there possible worlds where no evil acts are committed? Yes, I think that there could be.

How does that mesh with original sin? Probably not very well when by original sin you mean we're born with black, black hearts/souls and from day one we set out with evil intent.

If you think about being born with a "sin nature" which is basically that we are born with free will, but when given a choice we tend to make selfish/bad decisions. So it doesn't really mesh well with our perfect world either.

I'm more of a sin nature kind of believer, but I believe that because we're not born with experience or wisdom we tend to make bad decisions. As we gain experience/wisdom, we learn how to make good choices. And for me studying Christianity is my way of gaining wisdom (among other things).

And in regards to limitations: I think that we do have limitations on our abilities/activities. But I don't think that we have limitations on our choice of good/bad, which is ultimately what free will is about.

--tibac

long winded fool

I think this is an argument against human omniscience, not free will. The ability to live a completely good and sinless life is akin to the inability to make a mistake. If I am incapable of making a mistake, do I have more or less free will than someone who makes lots of mistakes? If I only make one or two mistakes in my entire life, can you glean the ammount of free will I exercise just from this? If someone makes thousands of mistakes, can they be said to have less free will than me? More?

If no human is omniscient, then all humans don't have the ability to be omniscient and therefore don't have the free will to be sinless, which means they are incapable of not making mistakes and are incapable of resisting absolutely all temptations. We have the free will to be anything but absolutely perfect.

Philosoft

Could not God have purposefully instantiated one of those possible worlds in place of the one we have without compromising free will?

<strong> Thus the Fall becomes a theological necessity. Correct?

Did they? It's possible they possessed the decision making mechanism, but did they possess the knowledge necessary to make the correct decision? Ordinarily, we resist certain things because we may judge them 'bad.' A&E didn't have the capability to do this. Ultimately, A&E did have the decree of God, but the idea that they were supposed to obey God "just because" seems theologically unsatisfying.

Philosoft

I admit this is much more theologically satisfying. But doesn't this put the impetus back on God? It would seem that, rather than inheriting A&E's punishment for their ill-advised choice, we inherited their God-designed natures. Thus, we all have the same monumental decision to make as they did. And if we never make that decision, we can live sinless lives. Hmm. Do you believe there are individuals who have lived sinless lives?

Amie

Hi Philosoft

hmmm although I said it was possible these worlds with no evil acts, I don't see it as probable...
I'll have to ask God and get back to you

I think those possible worlds are called Philosoftania where everyobody wears pink tu-tus, does the hokie pokie and eats chocolate fudge all day

Correct, or more so an inevitability...

God did tell them they would die. That should have been enough, but ultimately it was not...
why the hell did she believe that damn snake?!
Lets face it what reason did Eve have to listen to the serpent?

Infinity Lover

Yeah! What had that stupid serpent ever done for her? Now really?

I wanna go to Philosoftania (as long as I don't have to wear a pink tu-tu and dance the hokey pokey)

Amie

allright...I asked for that one I guess