Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Godless Dave · 05-10-2002, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fastfalcon:
A lot of things in Levictus (sp?) and Deutronomy do not apply to us because Jesus, on that cross abolished the things. The only things that apply to us are the TEN Commandments, and sexual sins. no one knows when children become accountable but i think that it is around the age of 12.

How come? Where does it say that in the New Testament? Why are some abominations still abominations but others are not?

Atticus_Finch · 05-10-2002, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anunnaki:
Finch sez:
"I disagree. I agree that the one who makes a positive statement has the burden of proof. I accept that willingly. However, a negative statement also takes on the burden of proof if you want to put it into the category of "fact". In effect, the statement "Adam and Eve never existed at all" is a positive statement which takes on the burden of proof. If one says, "I find insufficient evidence to convince me that Adam and Eve existed", that is different from asserting as a fact that they never existed."

OK fine.

I find insufficient evidence to convince me that Adam and Eve existed.
Not only do *I* find insufficient evidence,but the majority of the rational thinking world (including a large percentage of Christians and Jews) are also at a complete loss to find any good evidence to support the Genesis claims.

Are you happy now?

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]

"I feel happy, I feel happy" (Sorry, couldn't resist the Python reference).

I understand that many, probably a majority (if you are looking at the world as a whole) of people don't believe in Adam and Eve. As an atheist on here once wrote, "Truth is not determined by majority vote." Also, I should note that appeals to the fact that certain "Christians" don't believe portions of the bible is not very persuasive. I will not judge the heart or sincerity of someone who claims to be a Christian, however, I believe that there are many people today (as there have always been) who profess to be Christians and are not.

Some posted a reference to early Sumerian "garden of eden" stories as proof that the bible is just a retelling of an earlier myth. Possible. However, isn't it also just as possible the various cultures have a collective memory of an actual event. It is my understanding, I can't verify it yet and would love to hear some comments, that Native American cultures have world wide flood "myths". If this is true, might it not suggest a collective human memory of such an event?

Regards,

Finch

Talulah · 05-10-2002, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fastfalcon:
A lot of things in Levictus (sp?) and Deutronomy do not apply to us because Jesus, on that cross abolished the things. The only things that apply to us are the TEN Commandments, and sexual sins. no one knows when children become accountable but i think that it is around the age of 12.

Please support your reasoning that the Ten Commandments are binding today. Do you keep 'Remember the Sabbeth and Keep it holy,' or do you only keep Nine out of Ten. Still 90%. Fair, fair.

The Catholic Church says the age of reason is 6. Why I should believe you and not them?

My cousin says her 9 month old daughter knows right from wrong and that is why she spanks her when she does something her mother has told her not too. Why should I believe you and not her?

Atticus_Finch · 05-10-2002, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fastfalcon:
A lot of things in Levictus (sp?) and Deutronomy do not apply to us because Jesus, on that cross abolished the things. The only things that apply to us are the TEN Commandments, and sexual sins. no one knows when children become accountable but i think that it is around the age of 12.

I appreciate your heart and your intent. However, I don't think you correctly state the orthodox christian position on these subjects.

I am not an expect on this subject but let me try to explain it the best I can. The OT contained three types of law, moral, civil and ceromonial. No it doesn't set them out that way but that is an interpretive structure. The civil law was necessary because Israel at the time was a theocracy. If God through the prophets didn't make the law then no one would. Civil law includes those things which are mala prohibita (wrong because the are prohibited as opposed to wrong because they are morally wrong as in mala in se). The ceremonial and civil law where designed by Israel for its benefit but also to serve the purpose of setting them apart from other peoples. God wanted Israel to be separate and peculiar so that they would remain a separate people and not get lost in history.

The NT suggests that Christians are no longer bound by the law at all. See Gal. 3:10-14 and Acts 10:9-16. However, it also suggests that in response to our salvation we should lead moral lives. Gal 5:13-26. We are not saved by living moral lives but should want to live in a way pleasing to God. We can look to the moral law of the OT for hints as to God's moral law. That is where references to the 10 Commandments are often made.

As for salvation as it relates to children, that is an unresolved question. I do not think any Christian can honestly say that the bible answers that question. I think Christians must rely on their belief that God is just, loving and sovereign and leave it at that.

I hope that helps.

Regards,

Finch

GunnerJ · 05-10-2002, 11:27 AM

Quote:

However, a negative statement also takes on the burden of proof if you want to put it into the category of "fact".

....? What the devil are you talking about? I just stated that a negative statement is assumed true until its opposite positive claim is proven. I supported it by providing a common example of a case where non-existance is factual regaurdless of evidence for the non-existence of the being in question. This statement of yours about the "category" of "fact" is mere counter-assertion.

Quote:

In effect, the statement "Adam and Eve never existed at all" is a positive statement which takes on the burden of proof.

Wow. Just... wow. The confusion of cult-thought never ceases to amaze me. You seem to be unaware of what a negative claim even is!

On the subject of the existence of Adam and Eve, there are two possible states: they did exist, or they did not. (And no, I'm not talking about the positions perople can take; either they did exist or they did not.) Saying "They did exist" is a positive claim. Saying "they did not exist" is by definition a negative claim. All bullshit about the "cateory" of "fact" aside, this is true, simply from the presence of the word "not" in the second statement. Saying "They never existed at all" is just a reformation of the second statement, which is logically assumed true until the first is proven.

Quote:

If one says, "I find insufficient evidence to convince me that Adam and Eve existed", that is different from asserting as a fact that they never existed.

Of course it's different; it's an unneccesary cop out. Until you prove their existence, it is assumed true that they did not exist. Unless, of course, you want to spend your adult life telling people that you "find insufficient evidence to convince [you] that Santa Claus exists."

Rational Ag · 05-10-2002, 11:34 AM

So, here are the TEN COMMANDMENTS you must abide by. The first verses of Chapter 34 clearly state that these are replacements of the previous versions of the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and the final verses of the chapter verify that they are indeed the REAL TEN COMMANDMENTS, as shown below.

1 The Lord said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain; not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain." 4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the Lord had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the Lord.

27 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant-the Ten Commandments.

Now, for the REAL TEN COMMANDMENTS, which God intends us to live by, from Exodus 34.

1) Do not worship any other god, for the Lord , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

2) Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

3) Do not make cast idols.

4) Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

5) The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

6) Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

7) Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord , the God of Israel

8) Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.

9) Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.

10) Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk

Truly, an awe-inspiring moral guide. Humanity would be totally lost without them.

Do you follow all of the REAL TEN COMMANDMENTS? If not, you are evidently not a True Christian.

-Rational Ag

Anunnaki · 05-10-2002, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Some posted a reference to early Sumerian "garden of eden" stories as proof that the bible is just a retelling of an earlier myth. Possible. However, isn't it also just as possible the various cultures have a collective memory of an actual event. It is my understanding, I can't verify it yet and would love to hear some comments, that Native American cultures have world wide flood "myths". If this is true, might it not suggest a collective human memory of such an event?

Fine again,but what proof do you have that this "collective memory" supports Christian theology and not something else such as alien intervention?

Zechariah Sitchin has said for years now that these Mesopotamian myths and fables handed down to us through the bible and other religious texts were born out of ancient alien involvment in human evolution.

I`ve read the bible as well as the thesis of Sitchin and I have to say that Sitchins 30 year old theory sounds more plausible than almost 2000 years of Christian theology.

The fact is though that theres no good evidence to support ANYONES claim that these ancient stories are nothing more than myths and that collective memories of a deluge are just exaggerations of local seasonal flooding.

Btw...There have actually been more than 300 versions of ancient flood stories found around the globe.

GunnerJ · 05-10-2002, 11:38 AM

Quote:

A lot of things in Levictus (sp?) and Deutronomy do not apply to us because Jesus, on that cross abolished the things. The only things that apply to us are the TEN Commandments, and sexual sins.

Quote:

Leviticus, Chapter 18, Verses 17-19:

But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD.

And the flesh of them shall be thine, as the wave breast and as the right shoulder are thine.

All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.

Have you made your heave offering today?

BTW, <a href="http://www.mbdojo.com/~rssl/commandments.pdf" target="_blank">which ten commandments?</a> (You need Acrobat reader)

Quote:

no one knows when children become accountable but i think that it is around the age of 12.

So let me get this straight: an unsaved 11-year-old-kid is riding in a car the day before his twelth birthday with an unsaved 12-year old kid who happened to turn 12 the day before. The car crashes into a tree, both children die, and the first kid goes to heaven, while his buddy goes to hell.

Is this correct?

Talulah · 05-10-2002, 11:40 AM

Interdenominational warfare...

Christians trying to save each other...

I am disappointed. I thought us heathens were in more danger.

David Bowden · 05-10-2002, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anunnaki:

What exactly do I need to be saved for?

And I would add:

"What do I need to be saved FROM, exactly?"

Death is not something I care to be saved from, btw. I admire and follow a bit of Marcus Aurelius' advice: "Do not despise death, but be well content with it."

And I agree with Steven Pinker and others who work in mind/brain research that the human mind/"soul"/personal existence is not more than a property of the living physical body existing in nature and typically in society.

And I see no reason to disagree with Epicurus that death "is nothing to us, since while we exist, death is not present, and whenever death is present, we do not exist."

So, if a person does not fear or despise death, but accepts it as entirely natural and as the painless termination of one's existence, what exactly does accepting Jesus as a resurrected godman/great teacher/cosmic uber-friend save one from (besides Christian evangelists) - that absolutely no other religion saves one from?

I do not find that Christianity offers salvation from anything that one really needs saving from. Christian salvation is irrelevant to your life and to your death. If Christianity makes you feel better... that doesn't mean that anyone else needs to feel better in the same way you do.

-Wanderer

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: wide-eyed wanderer ]

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05-10-2002, 11:34 AM	#36
Rational Ag Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston Posts: 136	So, here are the TEN COMMANDMENTS you must abide by. The first verses of Chapter 34 clearly state that these are replacements of the previous versions of the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and the final verses of the chapter verify that they are indeed the REAL TEN COMMANDMENTS, as shown below. 1 The Lord said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain; not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain." 4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the Lord had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the Lord. 27 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant-the Ten Commandments. Now, for the REAL TEN COMMANDMENTS, which God intends us to live by, from Exodus 34. 1) Do not worship any other god, for the Lord , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. 2) Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same. 3) Do not make cast idols. 4) Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt. 5) The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed. 6) Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest. 7) Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord , the God of Israel 8) Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning. 9) Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God. 10) Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk Truly, an awe-inspiring moral guide. Humanity would be totally lost without them. Do you follow all of the REAL TEN COMMANDMENTS? If not, you are evidently not a True Christian. -Rational Ag

05-10-2002, 11:40 AM	#39
Talulah Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Beautiful Colorado Posts: 682	Interdenominational warfare... Christians trying to save each other... I am disappointed. I thought us heathens were in more danger.

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